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Malfunction before a shot is fired


chbrow10
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I'm sure that this has been discussed before put I couldn't find it after 10 minutes of searching.

Here's the scenario:

At the start signal, shooter draws and immediatly has a malfunction that locks the gun up for a while. The shooter clears the malfuntion, but says "I'm done" before a single shot is fired. We go through the ULSC process and get the range clear.

What is the ruling on how the stage is to be scored? Does the shooter get a reshoot? What is the rule number that supports your decision?

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Before the start signal they can fix - after the start signal, scored as shot including all mikes and FTE's - no reshoot - as per the rule number above posted by diehli

I would agree, but on one of the shooting shows on TV the results were different. I do not remember the tournament or the show, but I believe it was a major revolver championship.

On his very first stage, Jerry Miculek drew his gun and nothing happened. He had a broken firing pin. After much discussion of the rules, he was granted a re-shoot. This was not a case where he had a malfunction that could be cleared / repaired on the line. It did require a trip to the safety area, spare parts and a tool box.

Forgive my poor memory, but I do not remember if this was under USPSA rules or even if this was a match in the U.S.

Bill

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That happened at the 2012 IRC. The issue is addressed in the ICORE rulebook:

10. If at anytime a competitor is unable to finish a stage or string because of the competitor's equipment failure (i.e. barrel blockage, firearm breakage, etc.), the competitor will be scored his time and hits for the course of fire until the breakage, and awarded ALL penalties for misses, failures to engage, and any other procedural penalties appropriate to the stage or string.

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It happened to BJ Norris also. I think it was a steel match. They let him repair his stuff too. Nether shooter got even one shot off for the match. It was the 1st round of the 1st stage. That's why they got the time. The question was did they start. No time on the buzzer. Did they actually start? They said if he had made 1 shot things would have been different. How can you finish if you didn't start?

Edited by a matt
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It happened to BJ Norris also. I think it was a steel match. They let him repair his stuff too. Nether shooter got even one shot off for the match. It was the 1st round of the 1st stage. That's why they got the time. The question was did they start. No time on the buzzer. Did they actually start? They said if he had made 1 shot things would have been different. How can you finish if you didn't start?

9.10.3:

"A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not

fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have

an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range

Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire."

So---if they drew on the start signal, that's it.

For USPSA, at least, it should be a zero score. (I AM curious what EZWinScore will do if you put in a zero time, though---explode? Have a conniption? Dividing by zero often is a problem for computers...)

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It happened to BJ Norris also. I think it was a steel match. They let him repair his stuff too. Nether shooter got even one shot off for the match. It was the 1st round of the 1st stage. That's why they got the time. The question was did they start. No time on the buzzer. Did they actually start? They said if he had made 1 shot things would have been different. How can you finish if you didn't start?

9.10.3:

"A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not

fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have

an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range

Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire."

So---if they drew on the start signal, that's it.

For USPSA, at least, it should be a zero score. (I AM curious what EZWinScore will do if you put in a zero time, though---explode? Have a conniption? Dividing by zero often is a problem for computers...)

You check the "did not fire" box and EZW handles it just fine.....

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For USPSA, at least, it should be a zero score. (I AM curious what EZWinScore will do if you put in a zero time, though---explode? Have a conniption? Dividing by zero often is a problem for computers...)

You check the "did not fire" box and EZW handles it just fine.....

I had always thought that "Did Not Fire" meant they didn't attempt the stage. I"ll note I'm not arguing---they get a zero no matter what. It just wouldn't have occurred to me to use that checkbox. (Even though they actually didn't fire. :) )

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I'll try to word this so it's not a total thread drift, but here is a scenario that I think may be related to the original topic. Let's say a shooter reacts to the start, there's an immediate malfunction, and the RO stops the shooter because he or she thinks there might be a squib. The RO checks the gun and finds there is no squib. The shooter says to the RO that I'm pretty sure my firing pin is broken. Now, of course, we know that normally the shooter would get a reshoot if no squib was found by the RO. Does it matter what the shooter says? In this scenario would the shooter get a reshoot, or would there be zero score for the stage? Of course, most of us would do the honorable thing and take the zero for the stage? This is a USPSA scenario only, so please reply accordingly.

Edited by grapemeister
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It happened to BJ Norris also. I think it was a steel match. They let him repair his stuff too. Nether shooter got even one shot off for the match. It was the 1st round of the 1st stage. That's why they got the time. The question was did they start. No time on the buzzer. Did they actually start? They said if he had made 1 shot things would have been different. How can you finish if you didn't start?

In our game, the start of the course of fire is defined.

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I was thinking I would handle it that way, too. Because, after all, we have to go by the evidence at hand. There is no squib, the gun doesn't appear to be unsafe, and we really don't know if the firing pin is broken. I didn't stop the shooter for a broken firing pin, I stopped him for a possible squib. If the shooter brought up the honor thing, I would tell him there is no question of honor. Shut up, your getting a reshoot.

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It happened to BJ Norris also. I think it was a steel match. They let him repair his stuff too. Nether shooter got even one shot off for the match. It was the 1st round of the 1st stage. That's why they got the time. The question was did they start. No time on the buzzer. Did they actually start? They said if he had made 1 shot things would have been different. How can you finish if you didn't start?

In our game, the start of the course of fire is defined.

Steel challenge / Icore. USPSA, we know how that goes. mikes & FTE's

But BJ & Jerry were granted reshoots in steel & Icore. I know Jerry was I heard BJ did. Thanks

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I'll try to word this so it's not a total thread drift, but here is a scenario that I think may be related to the original topic. Let's say a shooter reacts to the start, there's an immediate malfunction, and the RO stops the shooter because he or she thinks there might be a squib. The RO checks the gun and finds there is no squib. The shooter says to the RO that I'm pretty sure my firing pin is broken. Now, of course, we know that normally the shooter would get a reshoot if no squib was found by the RO. Does it matter what the shooter says? In this scenario would the shooter get a reshoot, or would there be zero score for the stage? Of course, most of us would do the honorable thing and take the zero for the stage? This is a USPSA scenario only, so please reply accordingly.

Squib ? He has not even fired a shot! You need a primer to go off to get a squib.

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I'll try to word this so it's not a total thread drift, but here is a scenario that I think may be related to the original topic. Let's say a shooter reacts to the start, there's an immediate malfunction, and the RO stops the shooter because he or she thinks there might be a squib. The RO checks the gun and finds there is no squib. The shooter says to the RO that I'm pretty sure my firing pin is broken. Now, of course, we know that normally the shooter would get a reshoot if no squib was found by the RO. Does it matter what the shooter says? In this scenario would the shooter get a reshoot, or would there be zero score for the stage? Of course, most of us would do the honorable thing and take the zero for the stage? This is a USPSA scenario only, so please reply accordingly.

Squib ? He has not even fired a shot! You need a primer to go off to get a squib.

Double plugged RO sees hammer go down and no recoil calls STOP to be safe because he didn't want to make a bad mistake by missing a squib and watching a gun blow up, so he plays it safe.

Mike

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that would be an RO jumping the gun, I have seen more than one shooter come to the line and start a stage with an empty chamber. But if for whatever reason the RO says STOP, and then finds out the stop wasnt required shooter gets a reshoot. Also if you follow proper range commands you wont get the verbage trap reshoot. If shooter says "I'm done".... You should still say "IF you are done unload and show clear."

If you leave out the "If you are done" part and just say "unload and show clear" a fast thinking competitor could get a reshoot.

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Squib ? He has not even fired a shot! You need a primer to go off to get a squib.

When I got my first squib, it sounded like the hammer fell on an empty chamber. No poof, fart, puff, etc, just the sound of the hammer falling. The only way I found the squib was the trigger locked up cause the bullet was between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Even then it was a WTF is going on moment.

Edited by BlueOvalBandit
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