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Horrible accuracy, 115 gr plated


Chucker

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.378" crimp

Sorry guys. Typo.

Justsomeguy got me thinking. While it's probably not the crimp itself, it might be the full length resizing die adjusted down too far giving me too much taper. The pulled bullets looked visually brand new and don't show any crimp lines. However, I measured them and came up with .354". Originally they measured .355" so I am squeezing them down but not from crimping (at .378"). Some of my loaded rounds exhibit a bulge where the seated bullet pushed the casing wall out.

Ok, well a slight "coke bottle" appearance is not unusual and need not be a problem. You need enough case wall tension to prevent setback. Still, those bullets must be pretty soft. I have shot more than a few thousand plated bullets at pretty good speeds out of coke bottled brass without any keyholing and very good accuracy, but I was using Unique and Silhouette. Even at .354 they should shoot better than you report. The firing impulse to the bullet will re-swage it some anyway and it should still fill the lands of the rifling. It could be that these bullets just don't get along with that Bullseye load.

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First of all, it's generally conceeded that your best accurcy is going to come from 124gr bullets due to the longer bearing length / rifling twist rate. So you are fighting an uphill battle from the get-go. If you simply MUST shoot 115gr, then try some of the Berry Mfg 115gr Hollow Base which have an extended bearing surface similar to a 124gr without the added cost. (These are not currently available, due to the current bullet situation, but you might want to know that in normal times these type bullets do exist.)

124hbrn_md.jpg

Secondly, you gave no hint of a load "workup". If you want to find what works best in your gun you need to make up a batch of incremental loads beginning at the "starting load" and working up until you find the "sweet spot". That "sweet spot" is different for every gun/bullet/powder/OAL combination. No one can do this homework for you.

All the best !

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FOUND ROOT CAUSE!

It was NOT the crimp. I tried backing out the resizing die until I got another .001" clearance on the OD of the empty cases. I can get roughly 5" groups with 115 gr plated now (as opposed to 24" groups) at 25 yds. Essentially the resized taper was squeezing the bullets down and affecting accuracy just like a final crimp would. I had forgotten that 9mm is a TAPERED cartridge. Through all this I'd found that you can destroy a plated bullet even without cutting through the plating.

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Hmmm... it's not the sizer die, it's the expander not being big enough. If the expander ball does not go far enough into the case or is not large enough, it will not leave enough room for the bullet. Check the size of the expander ball and see if it is large enough. You need the sizing die to go all the way down on your brass or you will have bulges that will cause malfunctions.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ok, I have to jump in even though it sounds like you guys have it about figured out. I too was struggling with this with Xtreme (I live very close to them and can always get them, so…) If I used a faster powder, one that just spits the bullet through the barrel vs. a slower powder that just lets pressure build up behind while it has a chance to grab the rifling, I was getting tumbling, poor accuracy, etc. I was about to give up when I realized looking at a resized case that the resizer makes the 9mm case a straight walled case at that moment. Which means the case volume inside is no longer straight walled, but rather tapers in towards what would be the base of the bullet. So as the bullet was put through the seating die, it was being forced into that “tapered chamber”, effectively shrinking the bullet diameter. As the case was resized all the way down, it had enough “reinforcement” behind it at that smaller diameter that basically the bullet was losing the fight, and giving way to the case dimensions as it was being seated. So when using the faster powder, it would get shoved through before it had a chance to grab my G34’s rifling, and bam!! Keyholing, wild accuracy problems. I pulled the resizer way back, just enough to decap and add some tension to the bullet, however not so much tension that the bullet gave way to the case, but rather the other way around. The case was only narrow in one part so it stretched with bullet, and did not affect the diameter at the base (.356). Then I put in a Lee FCD at the last station, lightly crimped it and presto! Beautiful perfectly spec’d bullets that were accurate and had no 9mm “waist” look to them, and dropped into every 9mm barrel I could find. Since then I have had nothing but good results with any bullet from them, through all types of guns. The reason the MG and other true jacketed bullets have not had this problem is that the true copper jacket being thicker and more sturdy does not ever give way to the case trying to squeeze it into that now tapered case volume, it always stretches the case out.

This has opened the door to many different loads and many different bullets, all with much better performance than I had had before.

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Ok, I have to jump in even though it sounds like you guys have it about figured out. I too was struggling with this with Xtreme (I live very close to them and can always get them, so…) If I used a faster powder, one that just spits the bullet through the barrel vs. a slower powder that just lets pressure build up behind while it has a chance to grab the rifling, I was getting tumbling, poor accuracy, etc. I was about to give up when I realized looking at a resized case that the resizer makes the 9mm case a straight walled case at that moment. Which means the case volume inside is no longer straight walled, but rather tapers in towards what would be the base of the bullet. So as the bullet was put through the seating die, it was being forced into that “tapered chamber”, effectively shrinking the bullet diameter. As the case was resized all the way down, it had enough “reinforcement” behind it at that smaller diameter that basically the bullet was losing the fight, and giving way to the case dimensions as it was being seated. So when using the faster powder, it would get shoved through before it had a chance to grab my G34’s rifling, and bam!! Keyholing, wild accuracy problems. I pulled the resizer way back, just enough to decap and add some tension to the bullet, however not so much tension that the bullet gave way to the case, but rather the other way around. The case was only narrow in one part so it stretched with bullet, and did not affect the diameter at the base (.356). Then I put in a Lee FCD at the last station, lightly crimped it and presto! Beautiful perfectly spec’d bullets that were accurate and had no 9mm “waist” look to them, and dropped into every 9mm barrel I could find. Since then I have had nothing but good results with any bullet from them, through all types of guns. The reason the MG and other true jacketed bullets have not had this problem is that the true copper jacket being thicker and more sturdy does not ever give way to the case trying to squeeze it into that now tapered case volume, it always stretches the case out.

This has opened the door to many different loads and many different bullets, all with much better performance than I had had before.

May I ask which decapping die you used? You said adjust until it just decaps? So you don't rely on that die resizing your brass?
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I think your problem would be solved if you just got a good sizing die like Hornady New Dimension, my favorite. Then what do I know after only a couple hundred thousand rounds of 9 mm. I have shot plated bullets when I couldn't find anything else, they suked, in minor I prefer a nice Moly Coated bullet like Precision (the one in Kemp) or the piece de resistance the Bayou, Jacketed in Zero, or Montana gold.

I also don't shoot tupperware, so can't speak to that guns part in accuracy etc.

I think I have an old U-die I didn't sell off but I don't think that even in a single stage press it will go all the way to the base. The standard adjustment is to screw the die down till it touches the shell plate or holder then lower the ram and give the die another 1/4 turn down so that the press cams over.

I have a very rusty FCD die from years of not being used, I will tell you that it is ok to use on jacketed bullets, it is very much not ok to use on cast, or moly coated bullets, as it will cause the bullet to be undersized then it will go wobbling down the barrel leaving a trail of crud, lead and moly, since plated bullets are similar in hardness I suspect it will mess them up as well.

Having to back the sizing die off is just wrong and an indication of a bigger problem, maybe it was marked wrong at the factory or it was made on a friday before a holiday.

If the die is undersizing the neck of the brass too much, its the die, if the bullet is too soft to stand being seated in a case with proper neck tension its a bad bullet.

I don't think you found the problem you found a work around for the problem.

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Crimp, OAL come into play my 9mm guns like ammo loaded as long as possible and run in the magazines. While I like Lee's first stage sizer and second stage seater at present using a Dillon crimp die. Try to get crimp close to .278. Crimp is there so bullets feed smoothly into the chamber, first stage sizer holds the bullet in the case.

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I have tried some 115 gr Rainiers, they were ok, I guess.

I have been shooting a lot of 130 gr Berry's lately (with a KKM barrel) fantastic, nearly as accurate as my Montana Gold 124 JHPs!

Regarding plating in .40 S&W... My M&P Shield loves 155 gr hollow base... My M&P Pro HATES it, (the only load where my Shield is more accurate than my Pro.)

Regarding the thickness of the plating... As long as it doesn't come off when shooting, does it matter? In rifle calibers, manufacturers produce as thin a jacket as they can get away with as it aids in accuracy.

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I have a Dillon 650 with Dillon dies.

I'll break this out into two parts. CB is right, there is the "problem" and my "solution" to said problem. First, the "problem" aspect. I know the 9mm is a tapered case, and that the inside of the case dimensions once resized "taper inward" for lack of a better term, and are much more restrictive as the case goes from a tapered case to a straight walled case essentially after being passed through the decapper/ resizer die. What I was able to confirm after pulling a few bullets was the fact that the Xtreme plated bullets were getting slightly resized as they were being seated into the case. That was really the gist of the post above, (the problem) was that whether these particular bullets be of a softer lead alloy, or whatever, seating them into my brass after it had been resized was changing the dimensions of the bullet enough to cause issues with accuracy and tumbling if the bullet was propelled through the Glock barrel too quickly, by using a faster powder, versus a slower powder which seemed to give the bullet just enough time to take the rifling in the barrel, but still give me accuracy issues. They spec'd out post seating and pulling of the bullet at .354 or even less (depending on the brass itself), and going through the polygonal rifling (love it or hate it) at those narrowed dimensions with a faster initial charge seemed to just slide right through without taking the rifling. It has nothing to do with crimp; the problem was happening before the round ever reached the crimp stage.

CB is correct in calling the process I am using to work with the Xtreme bullets a "work around"; my post was merely to point out what was happening to the bullets during the process. That is the "problem". And also why you would not have the same issue with a true jacketed bullet like a Montana Gold.

As to the workaround, CB again is correct; that would not be the "problem", just how I corrected it, "my solution". I approach all my reloading carefully, and have been fortunate to have been doing this the last 20 years myself, and approached it as I do everything; very methodically. No reloading accidents or issues ever so far. It was initially not intended to be the "solution", merely an idea to see if what I suspected was true about the deformation of the bullet as it was being seated. However it worked so amazingly well that I kept doing it. Lee advertises the FCD as "post sizes the cartridge while it is crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability"... So I gave it a whirl. I know it sounds unorthodox, but from every angle it worked out, and gave me a bullet that once reloaded maintained a spec that worked to seal very well in every barrel with any rifling every time so far. It has a very light actual crimp, and has allowed me to continue to use less than top of the line bullets (honestly) with good results.

As for how far I am resizing, it is enough to put tension on the bullet. The further I resize, the more reinforcement the case has to not expand to allow the bullet in, it deforms the bullet. (Again, probably soft lead or alloy). Just enough, the bullet expands the case just enough to allow it to seat without deforming the bullet, which puts good tension on the bullet.

Of course I expect it to be met with some questions, and there may be a better setup out there that would not put oneself into a position where they have to think that much out of the box. Just simply using a better bullet is probably the easiest answer. However, where is the fun in that? :goof: The point of the initial post was to say where the problem lies, in the Xtreme bullet getting deformed to a smaller dimension by the case. Probably an undersized die, but that is where the problem lies.

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AZonePrecision,

I also had "problems" with to much neck tension on my 9mm die, so I backed it out a bit.

I don't see this as any different than adjusting the "shoulder bump" on a rifle die or just about any other die adjustment.

Now if I could get my .380 ACP die to resize tighter I'd be set.

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  • 3 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Plated in general blow, xtreme's are especially sucky. They're so bad they change their name every few years to sucker in a new group of buyers. They have been Xtreme for awhile now though. Buttt they still blow. On a good note, I put them on my drill press and drilled holes through them and they make pretty good carolina rigging weights.

Plated in general blow, xtreme's are especially sucky. They're so bad they change their name every few years to sucker in a new group of buyers. They have been Xtreme for awhile now though. Buttt they still blow. On a good note, I put them on my drill press and drilled holes through them and they make pretty good carolina rigging weights.

Ha, Ha, ha!!! Good idea! Smallmouth heaven!

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Plated in general blow, xtreme's are especially sucky. They're so bad they change their name every few years to sucker in a new group of buyers. They have been Xtreme for awhile now though. Buttt they still blow. On a good note, I put them on my drill press and drilled holes through them and they make pretty good carolina rigging weights.

Xtreme 147's work great for me. Every time.

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  • 11 months later...

I ordered 115 xtreme thick plated to try. I got 1 inch groups at 35 yards at 170 pf. So I ordered 3000... I get 10" groups now... I bet they tried to reduce some cost in material by marking the bullets softer in the second batch I got. Interesting part is that up to 20 yards, it stays within 2 inches, but at 35 it opens up to 10". My zero 125hp give me 1" at 35 yards.

The latest batch of xtreme 115 is .3545. I also have 135 fp xtremes that are .3555, these are giving me 2" at 35 yards... Once I finish my extremes, going back to zeros.

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  • 3 weeks later...

What is the best way to measure crimp diameter?

Calipers? How else would you measure it?

Are you asking what tool to use (see previous) or where on the round to measure? I use a digital caliper and measure at the very end of the case because I use a taper crimp. I look for .375". Using a micrometer to measure a taper crimp is difficult because of the wide anvil on the tool trying to measure a tapered surface.

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I ordered 115 xtreme thick plated to try. I got 1 inch groups at 35 yards at 170 pf. So I ordered 3000... I get 10" groups now... I bet they tried to reduce some cost in material by marking the bullets softer in the second batch I got. Interesting part is that up to 20 yards, it stays within 2 inches, but at 35 it opens up to 10". My zero 125hp give me 1" at 35 yards.

The latest batch of xtreme 115 is .3545. I also have 135 fp xtremes that are .3555, these are giving me 2" at 35 yards... Once I finish my extremes, going back to zeros.

I've noticed something similar. There seems to be a wide variation in the hardness of the alloy used - I have used several thou of the 147 TPs, some seat well, some batches are so soft the seating die deforms a good number.

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