Carmonized hammers under the IDPA microscope

[Carmoney]

The bolt, in conjuction with the hammer surface commonly removed during "carmonizing", does "block" the hammer from moving rearward preventing the gun from possibly being fired.

And how's the gun gonna fire if the action cycles with the cylinder open? This gets close to the heart of the issue: How's it a safety issue when the gun isn't even capable of firing? The silence in response to the ruling request suggests it's not clear cut, and/or HQ is choosing to defer altogether.

Tom

My point was simply that per IDPA's wording, the hammer surface removed by "carmonizing", in conjunction with the bolt, BLOCKS the hammer.

How will the wording be applied? Or will it be deemed to apply? I guess we'll wait and see. Just remember this comes to you from the folks who labeled (until recently) the IL a "safety".

My personal opinion is that a "carmonized" hammer probably doesn't sit well with IDPA's "real world" mind set.

There's nothing about a Carmonized hammer that isn't perfectly useful and valid in the "real world."

[revoman]

I have a Carmonized hammer on my 586L-Comp, which is my carry gun. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger with factory ammo. If staking my life on it isn't real world. Then I guess I don't know what the "real world" is.

IDPA reminds me of a movie, The World According to Garp. Maybe that is why I dont participate in IDPA.

[Racinready300ex]

I just shot the "Think of the Children" Sanctioned Match in Lewistown PA and the New York State IDPA Championship with this evil, modified hammer gun without any issue. I think that as long as the hammer block safety flag is still in place, the gun is OK.

I shot the Think of the Children match with a evil hammer mod too. Fun match.

[MrBorland]

IDPA's new rulebook is now out...and so are Carmonized hammers. The bastards.

8.1.7.5.

Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to):...Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.

[mmauk]

From the looks of the idpa rule book you have to be in bomb shelter to reload but I don't shoot idpa nationals so I guess I'll kept my cut off hammer at uspsa

[revoman]

So that means if I were to play the IDPA game with the revolvers I have removed the little spring and plunger from the cylinder release so that it does not lock forward when the cylinder is open would it then be illegal. Cause if you tilt the gun back with the cylinder open and the cylinder latch slides back the hammer will fall. Would that be considered altering a safety device? Again this will only happen when the cylinder is open and the gun is incapable of firing. So If you have a semi auto and with the mag removed and you rack the slide and the hammers falls when you pull the tigger this would to me be illegal as the gun is capable of firing with out the mag, same as with the cylinder open on a revolver. HMMM

[Racinready300ex]

So that means if I were to play the IDPA game with the revolvers I have removed the little spring and plunger from the cylinder release so that it does not lock forward when the cylinder is open would it then be illegal. Cause if you tilt the gun back with the cylinder open and the cylinder latch slides back the hammer will fall. Would that be considered altering a safety device? Again this will only happen when the cylinder is open and the gun is incapable of firing. So If you have a semi auto and with the mag removed and you rack the slide and the hammers falls when you pull the tigger this would to me be illegal as the gun is capable of firing with out the mag, same as with the cylinder open on a revolver. HMMM

That makes me wonder. If your pistol comes from the factory with a saftey to keep you from firing with out a mag in the gun can that still be removed? And how is that safer than a revolver? My revolver can't shoot with the cyl open, but a pistol can shoot with out the mag.

[Racinready300ex]

In the same week I find out the 625 I bought will probably be obsolete in USPSA, I find out my 686 is no longer legal in IDPA. Good times.

This revolver game is a pain in the....

[Rob Tompkins]

So that means if I were to play the IDPA game with the revolvers I have removed the little spring and plunger from the cylinder release so that it does not lock forward when the cylinder is open would it then be illegal. Cause if you tilt the gun back with the cylinder open and the cylinder latch slides back the hammer will fall. Would that be considered altering a safety device? Again this will only happen when the cylinder is open and the gun is incapable of firing. So If you have a semi auto and with the mag removed and you rack the slide and the hammers falls when you pull the tigger this would to me be illegal as the gun is capable of firing with out the mag, same as with the cylinder open on a revolver. HMMM

That makes me wonder. If your pistol comes from the factory with a saftey to keep you from firing with out a mag in the gun can that still be removed? And how is that safer than a revolver? My revolver can't shoot with the cyl open, but a pistol can shoot with out the mag.

Well, yes the new IDPA rules let you remove a mag disconnect.

IMHO, letting the hammer fall while the cylinder is open can create a situation like letting the hammer fall while slide is not in battery. Sure when the cylinder is fully open its like the hammer falling on a empty chamber with no mag in the gun. However, there is a transition period before the cylinder is fully open where the condition is more like an out of battery slide.

Personally, I don’t care if you mod your gun to do that or not. I’ve not heard of any reports where the hammer fell on an unlatched cylinder and fired a round off so I guess the probability is pretty low.

[lugnut]

Smith & Wesson has had a bobbed hammer as an option for a very long time. Not as radical as Mike's but bobbed none the less.

As a former IDPA revolver shooter and former SO I would ask the question.

"Is this a competition only modification? or is it good as a carry gun?"

The answer would determine if it were allowed or not.

If you want a picture of a S&W bobbed hammer before I install it in my L Frame I will gladly post it.

There in lies the rub! I would argue that MANY of the modifications we make to all our guns, certainly revolvers too, include work on the action to make the trigger smoother/lighter. I would personally never modify a carry gun's trigger... and I've had attorneys suggest the same. Lots of modifications we do are FOR competition. So it's a slippery slope when we (or they) have to decide what is for competition only and what isn't.

Interesting turn of events Gary as I'm hammering IDPA these days (no pun intended) for coming up with things to pork people. IDPA IS a COMPETITION.

[Racinready300ex]

IMHO, letting the hammer fall while the cylinder is open can create a situation like letting the hammer fall while slide is not in battery. Sure when the cylinder is fully open its like the hammer falling on a empty chamber with no mag in the gun. However, there is a transition period before the cylinder is fully open where the condition is more like an out of battery slide

For the firing pin to hit the primer the cyl has to be closed.

I guess in theory there is a chance the firing pin could hit the primer without the cyl closed. It would be an area about 1/2 the width of the primer. And even then, that doesn't mean it will set off the round.

So I guess in theory I could pull my 6 lbs double action trigger that has a 1/2 of travel at that instant the cyl is about 1/16" from closing and then the firing pin might hit the primer. Which may or may not set off the primer and fire the round. And then would the bullet still go down the barrel?

[Carmoney]

When I first decided to shoot IDPA about 10 years ago, I wanted to compete against the local Glock guys in SSP, so I bought a Springfield XD. Then I found out that the IDPA rules placed the XD in a different division.

So I decided to switch to SSR, and bought a S&W Model 646 and a Blade-Tech holster and moonclip holders. Shortly thereafter, the rules changed, and my gun was no longer legal in SSR, and my Blade-Tech gear was out the window completely.

Let's just say I sorta back away from IDPA at that point.

Recently I have started shooting IDPA again locally, and have been enjoying the competition and camaraderie. I had been really hoping the new rule book would be less arbitrary and illogical. Looks like that is not the case.

[Rob Tompkins]

IMHO, letting the hammer fall while the cylinder is open can create a situation like letting the hammer fall while slide is not in battery. Sure when the cylinder is fully open its like the hammer falling on a empty chamber with no mag in the gun. However, there is a transition period before the cylinder is fully open where the condition is more like an out of battery slide

For the firing pin to hit the primer the cyl has to be closed.

I guess in theory there is a chance the firing pin could hit the primer without the cyl closed. It would be an area about 1/2 the width of the primer. And even then, that doesn't mean it will set off the round.

So I guess in theory I could pull my 6 lbs double action trigger that has a 1/2 of travel at that instant the cyl is about 1/16" from closing and then the firing pin might hit the primer. Which may or may not set off the primer and fire the round. And then would the bullet still go down the barrel?

The next anaology in terms of effect that I can think of is a VERY BADLY timed cylinder. Probably not going to blow the gun up but it could get kind of ugly.

[ihocky2]

I'm glad this thread was around when I got my 686 and 625 up and running for competition. Instead of chopping all of the hammer off, I left a tab on the rear of the hammer to prevent it from going all the way back. So I removed about 80% of the material I normally would and still kept it legal under these new rules.

What seem more likely, IDPA actually decided on their own this was a safety concern? IDPA was pressured by S&W about the safety issue and IDPA didn't want to lose Indoor Nationals? IDPA realized USPSA shooters chop their hammers off and decided to make a rule against it on that basis only? I'm thinking the second and third options seem pretty likely.

[Racinready300ex]

I'm guessing indoor nationals had something to do with it.

[lugnut]

Recently I have started shooting IDPA again locally, and have been enjoying the competition and camaraderie. I had been really hoping the new rule book would be less arbitrary and illogical. Looks like that is not the case.

Camaraderie is all that is left. They are making it more difficult instead of better IMO. On the bright side... any guns that I've purchased to shoot in any division are always good investments.

[haggis]

I find it interesting that every Colt double action revolver made between 1907 and whenever Colt Revolver production stopped allowed the action to be cycled when the cyiinder was opened. Must not have been thought to be necessary for any reason.

Buck (Larry Huey)

USPSA L3357

ICORE LSC1754

IDPA Bwa-ha-ha-ha

[haggis]

Has everybody noticed that I have made no derogatory comments about IDPA in this thread?

Does everybody understand how difficult that is for me?

Mike, you're a better man than I. Any organization that violates it's own reason for being (as stated in its basic principles) is not an organization I want to belong to. I spent three years and countless communications trying to get the speedloader location rule changed. Their eventual response, after being mostly ignored over that time, was "because we say so!"

Buck (Larry Huey)

USPSA L3357

ICORE LSC1754

IDPA - you must be kidding

[Cd662]

Great, now I can say I was partially responsible for new nonsense. So now I have this 4 inch barreled gun which is COMPLETELY USELESS. I'm not a gunsmith so I can't fit a different hammer to the gun. Now I have to take one of my other used, junky 4 inch guns and have the whole gun done over? This is supposed to end the equipment race? Is there something I can do to the gun I have to fix this? I am not spending 600 bucks on making another gun legit just for IDPA.

I heard about some secret meeting between Smith and Wesson and IDPA about this but I have trouble believing that there was this giant stewing argument about revolver hammers in the IDPA world when state championship matches don't even get 5 shooters in SSR. This stuff pisses me off because it's hard enough to shoot revolver in any game these days, and then folks spend all this money to do it, and then IDPA in particular comes up with all this bologna. This is just more consistently ridiculous nonsense. The gun can't fire when the cylinder is partially open/closed. Are we solely worried about rounds magically detonating when the cylinder is completely open, and devoid of bullets, and when a competitor has to have his finger off the trigger because he's reloading? This is obviously more "We don't want anyone to think that IDPA is a game, it's real life tactical training so people have to start treating it as such." It's pushing back at the user base and anyone here who plays it as a game is going to get ostracized. There was a recent story about an FTDR issued at a nearby state championship match that was absolutely amazing. Anyone who could conceivably be treated as playing a "game" is being punished. This whole rule is just a kick back at people who want nice trigger pulls, because those aren't "realistic" on revolvers. They might as well just put a minimum trigger pull weight - anything under 10 pounds is a DQ.

I'm tempted to just go on and on but you guys all know what its about. Revo is a frustrating game to play, as someone else mentioned, its frustrating in USPSA, there are limited ICORE clubs, and now IDPA has this nonsense and the stages don't have to be revolver neutral. I went to a sanctioned match where the stage designers thought it was amusing that revolvers had to do tac loads on three stages, and on one of them when I made up shots on targets, the scorekeeper tried to issue an FTDR on me and then FOLLOWED ME to where I was sitting and lectured me for about five minutes on how to shoot revolvers properly and about the integrity of IDPA.

If anyone can legit help me make my gun legal without buying another one or fitting another hammer, please let me know. Otherwise, I don't see much else point for this thread since we now have the ruling in black and white.

[Norther]

Looks like my gun's not legal anymore. Rather than buy another hammer I think I'll quit IDPA altogether. I have too many gunsmithing projects to redo one I am happy with.

[bountyhunter]

I don't see how being able to cycle the action with the cylinder open could possibly be a safety issue. When the cylinder is open it is impossible for it to fire.

Not if it's just slightly open. Round would be off center to the barrel but the firing pin could catch the edge of the primer and set it off. That tang is the revo equivalent of the autoloader's safety devices which prevent firing when the slide is out of battery. IMHO, it could be considered a safety related device. Edited June 28, 2013 by bountyhunter

[Service Desk]

Revolver shooters can always do what revolvers do best ..... PPC !

[Racinready300ex]

I don't see how being able to cycle the action with the cylinder open could possibly be a safety issue. When the cylinder is open it is impossible for it to fire.

Not if it's just slightly open. Round would be off center to the barrel but the firing pin could catch the edge of the primer and set it off. That tang is the revo equivalent of the autoloader's safety devices which prevent firing when the slide is out of battery. IMHO, it could be considered a safety related device.

I doubt that can even really happen.

The problem is we are all so fast with our reloads that we want to start pulling the trigger while closing the cyl to save time. The goal is to close the cyl, aline the sights and the gun fire at the same time.

As we start to master this we can beat the bottom feeders and no one wants that.

[sbcman]

I find it interesting that every Colt double action revolver made between 1907 and whenever Colt Revolver production stopped allowed the action to be cycled when the cyiinder was opened. Must not have been thought to be necessary for any reason.

Buck (Larry Huey)

USPSA L3357

ICORE LSC1754

IDPA Bwa-ha-ha-ha

Yep.

Great, now I can say I was partially responsible for new nonsense. So now I have this 4 inch barreled gun which is COMPLETELY USELESS. I'm not a gunsmith so I can't fit a different hammer to the gun. Now I have to take one of my other used, junky 4 inch guns and have the whole gun done over? This is supposed to end the equipment race? Is there something I can do to the gun I have to fix this? I am not spending 600 bucks on making another gun legit just for IDPA.

I heard about some secret meeting between Smith and Wesson and IDPA about this but I have trouble believing that there was this giant stewing argument about revolver hammers in the IDPA world when state championship matches don't even get 5 shooters in SSR. This stuff pisses me off because it's hard enough to shoot revolver in any game these days, and then folks spend all this money to do it, and then IDPA in particular comes up with all this bologna. This is just more consistently ridiculous nonsense. The gun can't fire when the cylinder is partially open/closed. Are we solely worried about rounds magically detonating when the cylinder is completely open, and devoid of bullets, and when a competitor has to have his finger off the trigger because he's reloading? This is obviously more "We don't want anyone to think that IDPA is a game, it's real life tactical training so people have to start treating it as such." It's pushing back at the user base and anyone here who plays it as a game is going to get ostracized. There was a recent story about an FTDR issued at a nearby state championship match that was absolutely amazing. Anyone who could conceivably be treated as playing a "game" is being punished. This whole rule is just a kick back at people who want nice trigger pulls, because those aren't "realistic" on revolvers. They might as well just put a minimum trigger pull weight - anything under 10 pounds is a DQ.

I'm tempted to just go on and on but you guys all know what its about. Revo is a frustrating game to play, as someone else mentioned, its frustrating in USPSA, there are limited ICORE clubs, and now IDPA has this nonsense and the stages don't have to be revolver neutral. I went to a sanctioned match where the stage designers thought it was amusing that revolvers had to do tac loads on three stages, and on one of them when I made up shots on targets, the scorekeeper tried to issue an FTDR on me and then FOLLOWED ME to where I was sitting and lectured me for about five minutes on how to shoot revolvers properly and about the integrity of IDPA.

If anyone can legit help me make my gun legal without buying another one or fitting another hammer, please let me know. Otherwise, I don't see much else point for this thread since we now have the ruling in black and white.

Cd- you are in no way responsible for this whatsoever. I kind of feel that I am though because I put in a request for the ruling, thought I was doing the right thing and wanted to avoid future confusion/gun breakages. I also thought common sense would prevail in this matter. Lesson learned. Probably should have kept my keyboard shut.

The thought dawned on me last night as to what might really be up with all this stuff. It's unjustified conspiracy theory, but why, after years and years of using Hogue Bigg Butt would they, by name just become illegal? If I was Josh Lentz I couldn't help but take that personal. And why, after years and years of hammer falling actions with cylinder open in IDPA and USPSA is it just now an issue? Gotta give it to some other shooting sports that are really trying to breath life into revo divisions while IDPA seems determined to tick a large portion of their revo base off.

[seanc]

Great, now I can say I was partially responsible for new nonsense. So now I have this 4 inch barreled gun which is COMPLETELY USELESS. I'm not a gunsmith so I can't fit a different hammer to the gun. Now I have to take one of my other used, junky 4 inch guns and have the whole gun done over? This is supposed to end the equipment race? Is there something I can do to the gun I have to fix this? I am not spending 600 bucks on making another gun legit just for IDPA.

I heard about some secret meeting between Smith and Wesson and IDPA about this but I have trouble believing that there was this giant stewing argument about revolver hammers in the IDPA world when state championship matches don't even get 5 shooters in SSR. This stuff pisses me off because it's hard enough to shoot revolver in any game these days, and then folks spend all this money to do it, and then IDPA in particular comes up with all this bologna. This is just more consistently ridiculous nonsense. The gun can't fire when the cylinder is partially open/closed. Are we solely worried about rounds magically detonating when the cylinder is completely open, and devoid of bullets, and when a competitor has to have his finger off the trigger because he's reloading? This is obviously more "We don't want anyone to think that IDPA is a game, it's real life tactical training so people have to start treating it as such." It's pushing back at the user base and anyone here who plays it as a game is going to get ostracized. There was a recent story about an FTDR issued at a nearby state championship match that was absolutely amazing. Anyone who could conceivably be treated as playing a "game" is being punished. This whole rule is just a kick back at people who want nice trigger pulls, because those aren't "realistic" on revolvers. They might as well just put a minimum trigger pull weight - anything under 10 pounds is a DQ.

I'm tempted to just go on and on but you guys all know what its about. Revo is a frustrating game to play, as someone else mentioned, its frustrating in USPSA, there are limited ICORE clubs, and now IDPA has this nonsense and the stages don't have to be revolver neutral. I went to a sanctioned match where the stage designers thought it was amusing that revolvers had to do tac loads on three stages, and on one of them when I made up shots on targets, the scorekeeper tried to issue an FTDR on me and then FOLLOWED ME to where I was sitting and lectured me for about five minutes on how to shoot revolvers properly and about the integrity of IDPA.

If anyone can legit help me make my gun legal without buying another one or fitting another hammer, please let me know. Otherwise, I don't see much else point for this thread since we now have the ruling in black and white.

Dude.

Surrrender to the G-lock.