Glock to Shadow - How long?

[TerryT]

Just ordered a CZ 75 Shadow with action work by Matt Mink. Tired of fighting the Glock. For those of you who made the switch, how long did it take for the DA first shot/SA second to become 2nd nature? Any specific drills you used to speed up the process? Thanks.

[MarkMcArthur]

Just ordered a CZ 75 Shadow with action work by Matt Mink. Tired of fighting the Glock. For those of you who made the switch, how long did it take for the DA first shot/SA second to become 2nd nature? Any specific drills you used to speed up the process? Thanks.

Terry thanks for the order. I have shoot Glock's, M&P's, and XD's. It took me 1 class with Mink and I forgot all about the DA pull. Believe me it won't take long at all. Guess its a good thing he is my boss!!!

[gmg]

I made the switch and glad I did and you will be too. It took some dry firing and a couple of matches and then it will become subconscious action. Depends on you really.

[Pensfan]

Lots of dry fire. I never even notice it to be perfectly honest. Once the buzzer goes off, all I focus on is sight picture. The trigger never once even enters my mind.

[gonbzrk]

It's not the double action first pull that takes adjustment... It's the second shot (single action) that will throw you off. But not for long. Took me about 2 matches to forget about both changes.

[ShadoFann]

+1. Dry fire and a couple matches and I don't think about anymore. Congrats, you are going to be happy.

[TerryT]

Appreciate all the input. After a year of trying to go at any semblance of speed greater than slow fire at 20 to 25 yard targets with the Glock, I am throwing in the towel. Hated to since my carry gun is a G23.

[eric nielsen]

When you first start out you might separate your dry-fire into

1. Double-action from the holster

2. Single action for everything else (movement, reloads, etc)

Once you've shot it a while the shorter lighter trigger for "everything else" won't surprise you in matches any more.

I'd put yourself on a par-timer pretty early in your DA draw-and-shoot dry-fire. You don't want to get bogged down in setting things up and being perfect, the draw time can really suffer.

Your hands can really contribute to your progress. Get a Captains of Crush #1 and work it every 2nd or 3rd day (like any resistance training), then in your shooting practice focus on gripping as much with your pinky fingers as you can while easing up some on your strong hand's 1st/2nd fingers. I'm also bearing down on the thumb safety a lot, so much that I have to get it right at the start of the draw and right after releasing a mag during reloads. Then my support hand thumb and palm squeeze into the space that's left over.

[Andreas]

A tuned SP01 Shadow from CZC was my first DA/SA pistol after years of shooting 1911s and M&Ps. I was surprised with how easily I made the transition. Its second range trip was to shoot a Steel Challenge match, and I roughly tied my M&P times and just barely won the man-on-man side match. This was admittedly with near-daily dry fire practice beforehand.

For dry fire, I run the first shot (click) out of the holster as a conventional DA pull, but then don't let the trigger out enough to catch the DA reset. Hence, for the second and subsequent shots, I'm pulling on a dead trigger. Is this a good move? We'll find out at Sunday's match!

[tortuga]

I think you will find that the transition from the Glock is actually easier than from another SA gun. Also helps if you are used to shooting revolver.

Personally a DA first shot comes more naturally to me than a first shot in SA with safety on. Probably due to more wheelgun than semi over the years.

Once you get a feel for the reset for SA you are going to love it. FWIW I campaigned a 17L, 22 and 24 but switched to a SP-01 shadow recently and haven't looked back.

[Patrick Scott]

I made the switch a few months ago and was all nervous about it. Its no big deal, do some regular dry fire sessions and you'll have it down in no time.

[TerryT]

When you first start out you might separate your dry-fire into

1. Double-action from the holster

2. Single action for everything else (movement, reloads, etc)

Once you've shot it a while the shorter lighter trigger for "everything else" won't surprise you in matches any more.

So when most of you are dry-firing with the CZ, are you doing it DA only on something like transition drills with 3 targets? 6 DA shots?

[cpa5oh]

I've heard a few guys talk about not allowing the trigger to reset after the DA pull in dry-fire and continuing the drill in what feels more like SA mode - the thing I don't understand about doing that is do you really want to train yourself to always have your trigger in the trigger guard with the trigger prepped (for example, moving from shooting spot to shooting spot or on a reload?) We're practicing in dry fire to try and burn technique into our subconscious...last thing I'd want to do is teach my subconscious to keep the trigger prepped during a reload. And if you let it all the way out on reloads and when moving, then you've got a DA pull when you get the reload done/to the next shooting position and that is not what you'll experience in live fire. Unless I'm missing something...

[bc361]

I shot a G34 for 2 years and I made the switch to a SP01 shadow. I took me about 2 matches and some dry fire to get used to the trigger. My biggest obstacle was my support hand grip engaging the shadow safety after a reload. I changed to a regular SP-01 safety rather than modifying my grip.

[motosapiens]

So when most of you are dry-firing with the CZ, are you doing it DA only on something like transition drills with 3 targets? 6 DA shots?

This is a good question, and something I struggled with for a while. I now do only d/a pulls in dry fire. Generally I only do 1 pull per target (except for drill while moving). All I got from trying to simulate single-action pulls was bad habits. It seems to me that recoil is a totally integral part of those subsequent pulls, so there's no real point and pretending without recoil. Better to spend the time on things where recoil is not involved (reloads, movement, draws, transitions, etc...)

[eric nielsen]

Agree that keeping finger on the trigger anywhere that you wouldn't in a match is not a great training plan.

Alternatives, if you feel you must have a simulated SA pull, are:

1. Lock the slide back. You're pulling against the sear spring and maybe the return spring (I think, don't quote me). Not as realistic as locking back the slide on a 1911/2011 but good for movement/reloading drills. Changes the sight picture a little bit as it's closer to your eye, however it's a great way to clean up the quality of your hold and press with one-hand shooting.

2. Hammer back, leave thumb safety on. This works better with the traditional Shadow SA pull; with my Custom Shop gun with SRTS, the pull is almost nothing, not a good SA simulator. (Not sure of the stress this puts on your parts.)

What I do a lot of neither of the above, just use the real DA or SA pull with a rubber O-ring under the hammer. It tucks into the slide and under the rear sight and cuts the noise by about 2/3 (happy wife, happy life) and also makes thumb-cocking to SA a lot easier. HTH

Edited March 16, 2013 by eric nielsen

[facelessman]

FWIW, the little trick with putting a piece of junk in a Glock to hold the slide out of battery so you can dry fire against the trigger return spring... also works with a CZ.

...but usually I just hammer away at the DA.

[eric nielsen]

I was mistaken - locking the slide back (or holding it back with cardboard behind the chamber) results in pulling against the trigger return spring only on a CZ pattern gun. By comparison on a 1911/2011 holding the slide back, your finger is working first the return portion and then the sear portion of the leaf spring, giving a 2-stage feel but without the break. Another realistic dry-fire trigger is pulling through on a Springfield XDm trigger after the striker has dropped - again a 2-stage feel but without the break.

[TerryT]

Wow! I almost didn't ask the question about dry fire techniques because it seemed pretty basic. Had no idea of all the different things people are doing to get realistic practice. Thanks for all the feedback.

[bonglee0507]

a hundred rounds and you're done! congratulations man on your new toy!

[ck1]

IMHO the transition will be easy and you've got nothing to worry about. I think the single Glock pull is way harder to manage than the two Shadow pulls.

IMHO the Glock trigger is a very unique animal that in spite of it's simplicity, can make it tough to get the kind of "laser-beam" accuracy on-demand that most of us are after. It often goes unmentioned how tough it can be to truly get a perfect trigger pull every time with them, even after lots of rounds and lots of time. For targets that are at close range, it's just fine, but for me, on anything further out, or on targets that are small and require greater accuracy (i.e. 6" plate at 20yrds), getting a clean pull that doesn't upset the gun and fly a little left (or right for the southpaws) takes a lot, and can get frustrating.

Due to the nice trigger, and maybe the added heft, I just tend to think the Shadow is just an easier gun for most mortals to shoot well accurately as while it's got two types of pulls to deal with, it's still a lot more forgiving than dealing with a single pull that can be tough to modulate perfectly every single time. People make too big of a deal about the "single type of pull vs. learning two types of pulls"; the DA pull is always over before you know it, and as long as you're thinking "front-sight, front-sigt, front-sight..." it takes care of itself.

I like Glocks, and know it's the Indian and not the Arrow as they're quite mechanically accurate, but IMO, being able to make quarter-sized groups at will with a Shadow is just far easier for the human operating the trigger.

[sbo76]

Im still learning on my new SP01 but in the fist 2 matches i never noticed the da like i thought i would. I need to speed up off the draw but im sure this will come with practice and time.

[MFP4073]

^{I shot a whole season and the nationals last year with my first CZ from CZC. It is the first prodction pistol I like competing with as much as my custom built STIs (for limited / open).}

^{Previously, in production, I have used a Sig X5AA, 229, G17, and a Beretta 92. It took me longer to get a consistent grip than it did to get used to the DA trigger. I also had to switch the right side safety from the Shadow Target style to the standard style because I kept bumping it on (gorilla hands). All in all, I love my CZ.}

^{Good luck with yours!}

Edited March 26, 2013 by MFP4073

[eric nielsen]

The right-side safety was bashing my SH top knuckle pretty bad with the thin aluminum CZ grips. Switched just the right side to an aftermarket grip that covers the back corner. This keeps the safety off my knuckle and increases the gun's trigger reach just a little, which for me is good.

All the CZ aluminum grips leave that corner uncovered; if you have small hands or reaching the DA trigger is a stretch, you probably want the aluminum. Either way I'd say get a grip that's flat on top for the support hand side. VZ grips are flat AND cover the back corner.