DQ Question

[sperman]

Remember, this was a 3-gun match, not a pistol match. I think a DQ is supported by the USPSA multi-gun rulebook.

5.3.7 Allowing the muzzle to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). This includes passing in front of the muzzle of an abandoned firearm.

5.3.7.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.

There is no "holstered handgun is inert" exemption in this rulebook. Sweeping of the "lower extremities" is allowed while drawing or re-holstering. Myabe it is a situation they never anticipated, but sweeping of the upper extremeties is not exempt from a DQ, even if the handgun is holstered.

[EkuJustice]

It does not apply to a holstered handgun.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=46

[sperman]

The handgun rulebook has been updated to reflect the wording of that ruling. Since the MG rulebook has not, I assume that it doesn't have the same exemption. I could be wrong, but here is why I think it is different. At a handgun match, the loaded gun is in the holster for a very short period of time. The gun is almost always drawn immediately after the beep. At a MG match, you may shoot the majority of the course of fire with the loaded gun in the holster.

I am not a multi-gun RO, so I could have this all wrong.

[EkuJustice]

What about handgun in the holster breaking the 180 as that happens every tune a shooter goes prone. How would the time the handgun matter if its safe in the holster for 15 seconds then it should be safe for the whole stage.

[ben b.]

What about handgun in the holster breaking the 180 as that happens every tune a shooter goes prone. How would the time the handgun matter if its safe in the holster for 15 seconds then it should be safe for the whole stage.

But is a loaded handgun in a broken, upside down race-holster safe, as a shooter negotiates the course? Is it safe just because it hasn't gone off or fallen out yet?

I think sperman makes a good point. This happened in a 3G match, but this discussion switched to what if it was a pistol match? I had to stop the guy no matter what, and the reason is that it was an unsafe condition to have an upside down, loaded pistol dangling in a broken race-holster. Those of you who find that a safe condition to carry a pistol in and continue the course of fire, please speak up on your reasoning. If it was unsafe enough to STOP, why is it not unsafe enough for a DQ? My answer would be to read the rules as written, and I don't think the pistol rules are written to address this problem.

[EkuJustice]

If the pistol is considered safe in the holster in regards to sweeping then the angle will not matter. The 3 foot rule is for holstering as guns trigger is exposed which is not the case in a holster. If the gun did not fall out and may not have fallen out then it shouldn't have not been a dq. By that logic if the to feels a gun may fall out if the holster then the shooter should be dq when it has not fallen out if the holster. I know in my race holster I would have no issue holding the gun upside down and shaking it as it is not coming out when locked.

If you wanted to stop the shooter then a reshoot should have been given but it dosent look like a dq was warranted until a rule was broken. It's like if you see someone getting ready to break the 180 but have not yet done so you can basically let them do it and dq them or you block them and possibly cause to interference and they get a reshoot but you don't dq based on what may happen

Edited March 19, 2013 by EkuJustice

[Nik Habicht]

If the gun's loaded, I'm definitely pushing the DQ through, under 10.5 if need be -- and I've never found reason to use that yet. Part of competing in the sport safely means that the shooter is responsible for ensuring that their gun AND gear is safe......

If the gun's cold, I'd definitely stop the shooter. Beyond that it's a little iffy -- I'd need to make a decision.....

[EkuJustice]

Under what under 10.5. Are you saying the muzzle

Position while in the holster isn't to your liking as it may face back or up. If so then you would

Need to dq every shooter who goes prone How is the ability for the holster to retain the gun an issue if it dosent fall out. There are plenty of holsters being used which have very poor retention which are still allowed. If his gun is vertical the retention obviously works.

Edited March 19, 2013 by EkuJustice

[ben b.]

I don't see anything in the USPSA Handgun rules that describes a loaded handgun as considered safe when in the holster. Can you point this out to me? The exception is written about drawing or re-holstering and sweeping the lower extremities (below the belt) and says so in the first sentence, then lists holster conditions about commencement were broken after the start. It sounds like sweeping exception is limited to lower extremities.

The rule that was broken is about muzzle breaking 180*, which was a loaded, holster gun still retained in a broken holster that was pointed up. In addition, the USPSA Handgun rules note that:

"10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:..."

Which certainly allows some latitude.

It was a DQ based on the multigun rules used at that range. i found the rules:

2.5.7 Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of the participant’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

2.5.7.1 Exception - sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard.

[EkuJustice]

If the 180 applies to a holstered handgun then how is a shooter going to go prone with a loaded gun as that is gonna be way past 180

[ben b.]

I have not seen any prone stages with a loaded, holstered handgun in handgun matches or in 3G matches, but i have not been to more than a few 3G clubs.

In any case, I don't think that a broken, upside down race-holster with a loaded gun is the same thing as an intact holster where the loaded gun is not hanging upside down.

[ima45dv8]

Specific rules of a Pistol-only match or 3-Gun/Multigun match aside, if I see a loaded handgun flopping around and pointing at the competitor (or ME), I'll call a stop until things are set right (secured).

As far as I know, competitors in any discipline are held responsible for the safe operation and condition of their equipment.

I may be wrong but I would stop the shooter for safety sake and have them fix thier equip and run the stage again.

Yea that is probably the wrong answer too.

Mildot

Spot on.

[Nik Habicht]

Under what under 10.5. Are you saying the muzzle

Position while in the holster isn't to your liking as it may face back or up. If so then you would

Need to dq every shooter who goes prone How is the ability for the holster to retain the gun an issue if it dosent fall out. There are plenty of holsters being used which have very poor retention which are still allowed. If his gun is vertical the retention obviously works.

Not under anything under 10.5. I meant it when I said 10.5, not 10.5.x.....

If the gun's hot and holstered, I very much care where it winds up being pointed. An upside down gun is a prime indicator that we have a competitor who is not diligent enough with his equipment to be allowed to safely play with us. So that's a match DQ at that point.

I've never shot a three gun or multigun match that allowed the handgun to be hot and holstered during a prone portion. I'm not likely to shoot such a match, even if were to exist.

Cold gun in an upside down holster -- I know if I saw competitor walking around between stages looking like that, I'd walk them to a safe table and get the gun secured so they could fix their holster. During a stage -- might do the same -- haven't decided yet. Hot gun's an easy call.....

[EkuJustice]

I am going to disagree on unsafe gun handling as he was not handling the gun per the uspsa definition of handling ---The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible. While not a good situation the rule quoted does not fot the definition

Any rifle stage where the shooter has the handgun shot leads its self to the shooter going prone with the handgun hot and have shot plenty of matches where it could be done and has been done

[Bear23]

Local rules and an outlaw type match. Rules are different. In most sports you would be DQ'ed. Just get a better holster, you always learn something in competition.