DQ Question

[Zmego]

I shot my local tactical rifle match over the weekend. Our tac rifle is similar to 3 gun but we focus more on the rifle. We had 3 stages with rifle only, 2 stages rifle/pistol, and 1 stage pistol/shotgun.

My question involves one of the rifle only stages. I had my pistol unloaded in my holster when I started the stage. When the timer sounded I bolted and in running my pistol popped out of the holster and onto the ground. I immediately stopped and assumed that I was DQ'd. However the RO said that because that it was a rifle only stage that I was not. He picked up my pistol and handed it back to me. I holstered it and went to the safety area to bag it so i could run the stage again without it.

Should I have been DQ'd? I was under the impression that once that timer goes off all the guns in the shooting area are presumed to be loaded and even an empty gun hitting the ground is grounds for a match DQ.

Please don't get the wrong idea, I was thrilled that I was able to finish the match but I felt that I should have been DQ'd and it has been bothering me since.

On a side not I found out that during the previous stages one of my retention screws on my holster had backed out. I reset the retention and added some loctite to ensure no other safety issues.

[The_Vigilante]

Guess it depends on the rules. If it was just a local match and the pistol was unloaded the SO let it go

[GuildSF4]

What rule set? USPSA, IMA pretty clear DQ.

Local rules? don't know.

[Tommy C]

Even in the Outlaw matches that I have shot in, if the gun falls out during a COF it is a DQ.

Just my two cents.

Guns

[Zmego]

Seems like I should have been DQ'd. I will take it as a lesson and move on.

[carlosa]

You are not the first to survive Dq because the droped pistol was mot loaded.,

Wrong or right it happens, best advice is to secure your pistol so that it does not fall out regardless of condition..

[BillChunn]

I'd be looking for a holster with better retention. Would not want that to happen when the gun is loaded and required on the stage.

BC

[sroe3]

I replaced a Phillips head retention screw with a knob so I can adjust stage to stage when conditions dictate. I also snug a little between stages because my jacket sometimes hangs up on the grip.

[GigG]

If the club was calling it a USPSA Match you should be operating under USPSA rules, according to the Blue Book Appendix A.

USPSA Rifle, Shotgun and Multigun rules (provisional) Janurary 1, 2013 as posted on the USPSA web site call for a DQ

5.3.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm, or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

Edited March 15, 2013 by GigG

[ben b.]

I had an interesting experience this Saturday, while RO'ing. Start was loaded pistol in race holster, shotgun in low ready. After breaching the door & clearing steel, shooter moved to doorway to finish shotgun stage. I hear someone in peanut gallery say "gun is upside down", I look at the pistol and the race holster had loosened at the pivot & the loaded pistol was upside down in holster staring me in the eye. Stop. DQ.

[GigG]

I had an interesting experience this Saturday, while RO'ing. Start was loaded pistol in race holster, shotgun in low ready. After breaching the door & clearing steel, shooter moved to doorway to finish shotgun stage. I hear someone in peanut gallery say "gun is upside down", I look at the pistol and the race holster had loosened at the pivot & the loaded pistol was upside down in holster staring me in the eye. Stop. DQ.

That would be under 10.5.2, correct?

P.S.( Boning back up on my CRO skills.)

[ben b.]

I had an interesting experience this Saturday, while RO'ing. Start was loaded pistol in race holster, shotgun in low ready. After breaching the door & clearing steel, shooter moved to doorway to finish shotgun stage. I hear someone in peanut gallery say "gun is upside down", I look at the pistol and the race holster had loosened at the pivot & the loaded pistol was upside down in holster staring me in the eye. Stop. DQ.

That would be under 10.5.2, correct?

P.S.( Boning back up on my CRO skills.)

If USPSA pistol rules applied it would probably be that, and would definitely be 10.5.6 as soon as he attempted to draw that pistol. This was was an outlaw 3G and I don't know the applicable rule. The MD was standing there and confirmed my DQ.

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

[Hammar]

I had an interesting experience this Saturday, while RO'ing. Start was loaded pistol in race holster, shotgun in low ready. After breaching the door & clearing steel, shooter moved to doorway to finish shotgun stage. I hear someone in peanut gallery say "gun is upside down", I look at the pistol and the race holster had loosened at the pivot & the loaded pistol was upside down in holster staring me in the eye. Stop. DQ.

That would be under 10.5.2, correct?

P.S.( Boning back up on my CRO skills.)

If USPSA pistol rules applied it would probably be that, and would definitely be 10.5.6 as soon as he attempted to draw that pistol. This was was an outlaw 3G and I don't know the applicable rule. The MD was standing there and confirmed my DQ.

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

I didn't think that applied to holstered guns.

[ben b.]

What does the text say?

[sperman]

Pistol Rulebook:

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

I can't find this exemption in the MG rulebook.

[Sarge]

Shooter could flip the holster over and draw the gun safely.

[ben b.]

He certainly could flip the holster right back over and draw safely. Loaded, race holster-ed gun muzzle has already pointed at his and RO upper extremities. it's an interesting idea. If i have a loaded, holstered handgun in a roto holster, as part of my make-ready ritual, can I spin the loaded, holstered handgun around 360* so that the muzzle points uprange, straight up, at my armpit and then downrange, and feel secure in the exemption 10.5.5.1?

[Cd662]

Would 10.5.2 apply?

[Sarge]

Holstered guns are inert. Doesn't matter where a holstered gun points, it matters if you draw from a holster pointed in an unsafe direction.

Would 10.5.2 apply?

Not if it's holstered. Watch people bend over when picking up brass and see where the muzzles sometimes point. Look at people sitting in chairs or on benches or eating lunch at a picnic table. All their guns would be pointing in unsafe directions except that the guns are holstered.

[Sarge]

He certainly could flip the holster right back over and draw safely. Loaded, race holster-ed gun muzzle has already pointed at his and RO upper extremities. it's an interesting idea. If i have a loaded, holstered handgun in a roto holster, as part of my make-ready ritual, can I spin the loaded, holstered handgun around 360* so that the muzzle points uprange, straight up, at my armpit and then downrange, and feel secure in the exemption 10.5.5.1?

If it's secure in the holster that rule is pretty clear to me.

[ben b.]

It's not that clear to me. The exemption states "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7"

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

And a loaded gun holstered in a broken holster with muzzle pointed up appears to not be in compliance with 5.2.7.2 and 5.2.7.3. if it is not in compliance, it is not protected by 10.5.5.1.

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.1 A shoulder holster or “tie-down” rig (visible or otherwise),except as specified in Rule 5.2.8,

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 3 feet from the competitor’s feet while standing relaxed,

5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered

[carlosa]

It's not that clear to me. The exemption states "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7"

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

And a loaded gun holstered in a broken holster with muzzle pointed up appears to not be in compliance with 5.2.7.2 and 5.2.7.3. if it is not in compliance, it is not protected by 10.5.5.1.

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.1 A shoulder holster or “tie-down” rig (visible or otherwise),except as specified in Rule 5.2.8,

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 3 feet from the competitor’s feet while standing relaxed,

5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered

Not sure about Dq but stoping the shooter was definetly the right thing to do, just because the gun didn't fall it doesn't mean it was in safe condition ant that it would have not fallen while the shooter attempted to rotatate it or what ever..

Good job for stoping him

[EkuJustice]

I would say it was the wrong call. The gun in the holster is inert. Ever see a 3 gun match where the shooter goes prone with a rifle with the pistol in the holster, I know I have guess which direction the loaded gun is pointed. What about a "bed" start that muzzle while holstered can go any which way when the shooter gets up as long as the gun is safe when its drawn from the holster

[Hammar]

It's not that clear to me. The exemption states "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7"

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

And a loaded gun holstered in a broken holster with muzzle pointed up appears to not be in compliance with 5.2.7.2 and 5.2.7.3. if it is not in compliance, it is not protected by 10.5.5.1.

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.1 A shoulder holster or “tie-down” rig (visible or otherwise),except as specified in Rule 5.2.8,

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 3 feet from the competitor’s feet while standing relaxed,

5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered

Yes, shall not be permitted to begin a course of fire. The post stated that the holster turned during the course of fire.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Hammar

[mildot1]

I agree this is NOT a condition I would like to see ANY pistol in! However I am having difficulty finding the rule that I could use to force a DQ in this situation. I am not allowed to make shit up up as I go just because I am not happy about something and as long as the pistol remained securely holstered and was not drawn in a manner that the trigger was exposed while the muzzle was over three feet away from the shooter.

Muzzles are pointed past the 180 everytime a 3 gun shooter goes prone, so because this looks odd you want to have a knee jerk reaction and scream DQ?

I may be wrong but I would stop the shooter for safety sake and have them fix thier equip and run the stage again.

Yea that is probably the wrong answer too.

Mildot