kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 At our local indoor match, we want to use a barricade that has a panel set into it which when open, will be a port with targets. The panel has springs on it and has to be held open. There is a large knob to open the panel with. Once the panel is opened, you can lean through and rest your arms on the panel to hold it open and shoot the targets. We'd like to have the targets taken strong hand only. Can we require that your hand remain in contact with the knob to engage that entire array so that folks don't just lean in and prop it open with their arms? Another thought would be to require that your hand be on the knob prior to the last shot but I'd worry about folks leaning on the panel for all but the last shot and when they let up to grab the knob, the panel springs back and hits them, although it doesn't come back that quickly or strongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedemon45 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 You cannot require that the hand remain in contact with the knob but you can specify strong hand only if it is the last 6 or less shots of a medium or long course Read Rule 1.1.5.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 See this thread. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129124&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Kimmie I personally think the setup you mention is a recipe for disaster. Rules aside I would be uncomfortable requiring a hand be inside a port if it's not on the gun. Best case- lot's of sweeping DQ's. Worst case- Well, that's easy to fill in the blanks. Why not have it hinge on top and put a pull rope on the wall that they have to hold to keep the flap open? Edited March 10, 2013 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 O.k. But 1.1.5.4 says I can not stipulate the use of strong/weak hand and I'm not doing that. I'm stipulating holding onto something. 1.1.5.5 says that through the use of props requiring a competitor to shoot both stong/weak, must not be made to transition directly from one to the other. I am using props (knob) to force them to shoot strong hand only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Sarge - yes, now that you say that, I can see it.. Although, the knob isn't inside the port but more to the edge and bottom and there are actually 2 knobs, one on the far right and one on the far left so folks should automatically (I would hope) use their weak hand. I could put that in the stage briefing I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 O.k. But 1.1.5.4 says I can not stipulate the use of strong/weak hand and I'm not doing that. I'm stipulating holding onto something. 1.1.5.5 says that through the use of props requiring a competitor to shoot both stong/weak, must not be made to transition directly from one to the other. I am using props (knob) to force them to shoot strong hand only. I think you are fine rules wise. We often shoot holding brief cases, ammo cans etc. Did you see the picture in front sight where one of the shooters hands was handcuffed to a chain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedemon45 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 1.1.5.4 says you "can" stipulate use of strong/weak hand if used at the end of a course. I don't know how your course is designed so I don;t know if this would work. If it is early in the stage it would be much easier to use a prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Sperman, I'm not finding my answer in that thread, am I just not seeing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 One time at the Nationals they had a simulation of an elevator door and you had to hold the button to keep the door open. I did a stage at an Area 4 match one time where you had to put a digit (finger) through a target set up at one side of the shooting box which worked pretty well to limit which hand one would use to shoot with. Had 3 shooting boxes - started in middle and went to either one first, then the other - shooters choice. That way you shot freestyle from center box, strong hand from left box and weak hand from the right box (assuming you were right handed, reverse for left handers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedemon45 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I do not think you can stipulate that the knob be held with X hand while shooting with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 You really don't need to stipulate it, the location of the knob ( or whatever ) will pretty well determine which hand they will use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedemon45 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 You really don't need to stipulate it, the location of the knob ( or whatever ) will pretty well determine which hand they will use. Not necessarily. It seems in the situation she is describing the port could be opened and then supported with elbows/arms so looking for a way to specify while staying safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 The more I read and look through the rule book and listen to what you guys are saying, I'm not seeing anything that says it's not legal. I don't think that 1.1.5.4 applies because I'm not 'stipulating' strong hand/weak hand. And actually, I'm thinking 1.1.5 says that it's alright, "conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations and stances" I think I just need to make sure it's not creating a dq fest. More thoughts???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) You really don't need to stipulate it, the location of the knob ( or whatever ) will pretty well determine which hand they will use. Not necessarily. It seems in the situation she is describing the port could be opened and then supported with elbows/arms so looking for a way to specify while staying safe. Yes. They could lean on it with elbows/arms holding it open and shoot with both hands. It is hinged on the bottom so opens top down. Pushing up on the knob, which is at the bottom on either side, pushes it open. I want to specify keeping a hand on the knob (more of a lever), which will force strong hand shooting. Edited March 10, 2013 by kimmie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 freestyle, build the prop, let shooters figure out how to shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 One time at the Nationals they had a simulation of an elevator door and you had to hold the button to keep the door open. I did a stage at an Area 4 match one time where you had to put a digit (finger) through a target set up at one side of the shooting box which worked pretty well to limit which hand one would use to shoot with. Had 3 shooting boxes - started in middle and went to either one first, then the other - shooters choice. That way you shot freestyle from center box, strong hand from left box and weak hand from the right box (assuming you were right handed, reverse for left handers) Very similar, I think to the elevator door. But how did you get folks to not block the door open with their foot? Maybe I could say that no body part can touch the panel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Sperman, I'm not finding my answer in that thread, am I just not seeing it? Here, Troy says that things like this can be required in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Sperman, I'm not finding my answer in that thread, am I just not seeing it? Here, Troy says that things like this can be required in the WSB. I'm reading it's o.k. You are making me work LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Kimmie, It has been a number of years since that Nationals, as I remember the door was pretty strong (as far as closing) or they may have had something in the stage description that kept people from using their foot. I just don't remember all the details, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Kimmie, It has been a number of years since that Nationals, as I remember the door was pretty strong (as far as closing) or they may have had something in the stage description that kept people from using their foot. I just don't remember all the details, sorry. That's ok Steve - your examples helped me. Thanks! Edited March 10, 2013 by kimmie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Kimmie, It has been a number of years since that Nationals, as I remember the door was pretty strong (as far as closing) or they may have had something in the stage description that kept people from using their foot. I just don't remember all the details, sorry. Easy - just put the door OUTSIDE the shooting area fault line. Any contact with the door (such as to block it open) is a procedural penalty per shot fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 That may have been done in the stage I described, anyway, that is a good way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Thank you all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 OK If you are making them hold open the door or port, how can you give them pen. for doing so? 08 Open natts. in Missula had a stage where you had to hold down a button to shoot through a port. But I don't remember if the button actually did something to enable the port to open or if it just had to be held down to shoot through. There are ways to do this, follow along. Build the wall W/port at arms lenght away from the fault. If the port opens UP the shooter would have to hold the port open to shoot through. If you didn't hold the port open it would block their view of the target and sights (alot of shooters don't use sights anyway). There are a few things to work out with this like not everyone had the same lenght arms. Some peopls are taller or shorter than some. But it can and has been done. Just not with the intention before hand of having to shoot with one hand. I like this idea, I'm going to try and make a stage to use it at the next club match at PIPS (Pine Island Pratical Shooters)-Pine Island White Pines Sportsmans Club, Pine Island, MN. The match is March 30 it will be the 1st match of anykind using the new bays (5) and new gigantic (at least compared to the old one) clubhouse. Just to stir the pot some I'm going out on a limb and say this just might be the nicest range in MN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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