A question for all those that set up stages

[extremedistance]

Do you ever think of the shooter when doing this or do you only try to challenge them. My daughter is 12 and has been competing now for about 5 months. I have seen more than one stage that she cant complete because she wasnt tall enough to lean all the way around a barrier. I, myself, am well over 6 foot and it was still a little difficult for me because the box was so close to the barrier.

For the record, I am not picking a fight. I am just looking for opinions on how people set up their stages. If they are looking for a high failure rate or if they are looking to make their shooters successful. I always thought it was to simulate a situation or just measure shooting fundamentals and technique. Just wondering. trying to get my mind around it

[juan]

we have some very young shooters at our club im talking 10

we have let them use stair cases to shoot over walls that were to high for them.

when my son was young i would tell him go ahead and fault to shoot the tgt

[Sarge]

Please do not take this the wrong way. Yes, I do consider shooters when setting up stages but I don't try to accommodate 12 year olds. Nor do I try to accommodate those that are well over 6 feet. That is asking the impossible

[extremedistance]

Sarge, no offense taken. just trying to understand so I can prepare her for more as her career progresses. she is already sponsored and I feel it is my responsibilty to help her giver her sponsors their moneys worth. thank you for your hard work and promotion of the sport.

juan, glad to hear you encouraging the next generation. Love to hear about this stuff

[MarkCO]

If the shooter can not get to or see the targets becasue of poor course construction, then you are not testing their ability to shoot the targets but their gymnastics skills. I most definately consider shooter stature in course design. In 3Gun it is even more difficult. BUT, shooting with the weak side IS a shooting challenge. If I have a 4 foot wall to shoot over, I need to have a platform or an alternate, non penalizing view, so that short shooters can elevate and be presented the same shooting challenge. More and more, these rules are being ignored:

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators.

Edited March 9, 2013 by MarkCO

[extremedistance]

Thanks MarkCO. I didnt know that 1.1.6 even existed. does seem like some challenges require a pure impossibility of physics. Again.. The majority of her stages have been fun and enjoyable for everyone. The only reason I brought up this topic is that it seems like I am seeing the level of stages that require someone to "bend" their bullets around objects has increased and was wondering if it was becoming a trend

[Graham Smith]

It's a good question but there is not a simple answer. Yes, I think about the shooters. From production to open, men and women, left and right handed. I gave a seminar last month and stressed this. BUT, there are limits. If you make it too easy for everyone, then no one is challenged. It's a balancing act. But a challenging stage does not have to be physically challenging to be good.

[extremedistance]

That seems more than reasonable to me Graham Smith. not looking for it to be easy. just possible thanks for your input

[Pat Miles]

Please do not take this the wrong way. Yes, I do consider shooters when setting up stages but I don't try to accommodate 12 year olds. Nor do I try to accommodate those that are well over 6 feet. That is asking the impossible

Sarge,

Folks well over six feet can bend, squat, lay down, etc.. Short folks can't get taller without carrying a ladder.

Pat

[extremedistance]

haha Pat I almost spit my drink on my laptop. that was funny. My overactive imagination actually saw someone running a stage with a step ladder attached to their back. I do agree with you though

[Poppa Bear]

Understandably most people design for themselves. I am 5'11" so I view stages from my view point. If I feel it is going to be tough for another shooter I will call them over to check it out. We have people from 5' tall up to one at 6' 11". Out biggest challenge is ports. They are usually based on the average shooter being around 5' 10" so we are starting to cut our ports so they are taller than they are wide.

[extremedistance]

Good looking out Poppa Bear. avarage is still possible

[Sarge]

Please do not take this the wrong way. Yes, I do consider shooters when setting up stages but I don't try to accommodate 12 year olds. Nor do I try to accommodate those that are well over 6 feet. That is asking the impossible

Sarge,

Folks well over six feet can bend, squat, lay down, etc.. Short folks can't get taller without carrying a ladder.

Pat

You are correct. We have a few shortish shooters around here and I do make every effort to make sure ports are of "average" height to work for everybody. but It's tough making ports the right height for a small child. It's OK to give an alternate view but in my opinion it is not OK to put a box there for a short shooter to stand on. The box needs to stay there once it's put down. At that point it is a trip hazard or way too high for the other 99% of the shooters.

I'm actually trying to understand a smaller shooter having a hard time looking around a wall. A too sharp of an angle is too sharp for anybody a reasonable angle is good for all.

There is a sweet spot for angles, ports, etc... It's pretty easy to set up a port and walk up to it and tell if it's too high.

[extremedistance]

Sarge the angles I was speaking of earlier were extreme and tough on everyone and my daughter is 5-5" so she is somewhat tall for a 12 yr old. maybe that can put the issues we have encountered in perspective. It is almost like the guy setting up that stage wanted everyone to fail

[Sarge]

It is almost like the guy setting up that stage wanted everyone to fail

AND THAT is a shame. Angles never have to be so severe that they make a shot nearly impossible.

By the way, at 5'5" she is taller than the shorties around here I think.

[Guest]

When I've shot with younger developing shooters at club shoots folks are usually forgiving and tolerant of the groms bending the faults and shooting positions. I think what Juan posted about having them intentionally fault where they need to is appropriate. My children are still a little young, but if they want to start shooting my initial approach would be Safety first, learn the game, and have fun. I'd probably let them do the steel challenge stuff first since there is generally no moving.

[extremedistance]

It just seems like I am seeing this more often in multiple places. I just didnt know if was a trend. and yes she isnt the shortest shooting around here either lol BTW - Thanks for all the good convo Sarge

[Sarge]

and yes she isnt the shortest shooting around here either lol BTW - Thanks for all the good convo Sarge

all the best to her. Keep us posted. Get a video up of her next time.

[Luv2rideWV]

I have to travel to shoot USPSA, but we do have various types of action matches at our home club. This may not be a real official reply, but we make an attempt to accomodate kids or people who may have some sort of disability. Our club isn't affiliated with any governing organization, and our rural location also means there aren't as many competitive shooters - WE ARE TRYING TO GROW COMPETITIVE SHOOTERS. The youngest shooter I've seen go through a match of ours was eight years old; his father did an excellent job coaching the child and ensuring that he ran his .22 caliber pistol safely; this boy has safely shot in numerous matches with the added safety of having his father with him. On the other end of the spectrum, we have some folks who are older with bad hips and one man who was disabled while serving in the military. We accomodate them, too. If your disability means you have trouble with shooting around a baracade, we allow them to step out and shoot around it. By accomodating others, we ensure that we don't exclude people. I may be competitive with my buddy, but I don't lose anything by making allowances for others to safely compete. I think this should be more the attitude at the local or club level. Further, that guy you made an allowance for probably isn't going to knock anyone else out of winning anything. Like I said, this wasn't a real official rule quoting reply, but my goal in my home town is to get people out and participating, to build community, to teach safety, and to build interest in someday chartering a USPSA club at our home range. Also, our matches are good practice for me and the few others who do travel to shoot USPSA.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Luv2rideWV

[extremedistance]

got to upload some vids but here she is...

[extremedistance]

Luv2rideWV what a great outlook. keep up the great work

[Sarge]

to build interest in someday chartering a USPSA club at our home range.

Everything you said is commendable! Great work. But remember, when you someday get sanctioned you won't have the flexibility you have now. You agree to abide by USPSA rules when you get sanctioned.

[Luv2rideWV]

Thanks guys; I really do appreciate the comments.

[Graham Smith]

Port height is an issue. You can elongate a port but a port is not the same as a gap between walls. If it were possible, I would like to use a port that could be adjusted for a shooter, but we can't do that. So we just have to compromise.

[Henry625]

I have asked this same question concerning this topic. How many videos have you seen where to make the shot, the shooter is leaning to the extent of almost falling out of the shooting box? Anytime a shooter must contort to such an degree that they are off balance, this is an unsafe condition .

Granted, you don't want every shot to be straight forward, but I have seen courses where the competitor was leaning out on one leg, actually falling out while the shot was fired. Is this really necessary?