The balance of speed and accuracy

[Supermoto]

you don't need to balance speed and accuracy, you need both speed and accuracy. Increase your speed, increase your accuracy

[kita]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

Edited March 9, 2013 by kita

[lugnut]

you don't need to balance speed and accuracy, you need both speed and accuracy. Increase your speed, increase your accuracy

You know it Mikey!!

[juan]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

I would say efficiency will increase some speed. Take a turtle he can be the most efficient with no wasted movement.

unless he picks up the pace , the unefficient jack rabbit will beat him.

[kita]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

I would say efficiency will increase some speed. Take a turtle he can be the most efficient with no wasted movement.

unless he picks up the pace , the unefficient jack rabbit will beat him.

Or the inefficient jack rabbit will mess up less than the turtle, leaving the turtle who shot all A's with no penalties with the trophy...or maybe the jack rabbit will drop his loaded gun in the dirt in the middle of shooting a stage.

[Supermoto]

Speed without efficiency is as useless as speed without accuracy.

[juan]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

I would say efficiency will increase some speed. Take a turtle he can be the most efficient with no wasted movement.

unless he picks up the pace , the unefficient jack rabbit will beat him.

Or the inefficient jack rabbit will mess up less than the turtle, leaving the turtle who shot all A's with no penalties with the trophy...or maybe the jack rabbit will drop his loaded gun in the dirt in the middle of shooting a stage.

this is where I think we mis understand each other. there is so much more then pulling a trigger while shooting a stage.

theres movement. if you walk from point a to point b, and I run. I will win,points the same. if you dont practice going fast.

your doomed to walk every stage.

[kita]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

I would say efficiency will increase some speed. Take a turtle he can be the most efficient with no wasted movement.

unless he picks up the pace , the unefficient jack rabbit will beat him.

Or the inefficient jack rabbit will mess up less than the turtle, leaving the turtle who shot all A's with no penalties with the trophy...or maybe the jack rabbit will drop his loaded gun in the dirt in the middle of shooting a stage.

this is where I think we mis understand each other. there is so much more then pulling a trigger while shooting a stage.

theres movement. if you walk from point a to point b, and I run. I will win,points the same. if you dont practice going fast.

your doomed to walk every stage.

Juan, I don't have a life today either. I'm home sick and bored.

[juan]

How is speed the one thing that comes with time and with out practice?

speed and effiency are not the same thing. a faster shooter can beat a more efficent shooter.

The greatest is effiency and speed.

to be fast you must practice fast. just like any other aspect of our sport.

Isn't efficiency eliminating unnecessary movement and keeping the quality of your hits as high as possible? Does it not increase ones speed by being efficient? I feel like increasing one's speed could potentially reduce efficiency.

I would say efficiency will increase some speed. Take a turtle he can be the most efficient with no wasted movement.

unless he picks up the pace , the unefficient jack rabbit will beat him.

Or the inefficient jack rabbit will mess up less than the turtle, leaving the turtle who shot all A's with no penalties with the trophy...or maybe the jack rabbit will drop his loaded gun in the dirt in the middle of shooting a stage.

this is where I think we mis understand each other. there is so much more then pulling a trigger while shooting a stage.

theres movement. if you walk from point a to point b, and I run. I will win,points the same. if you dont practice going fast.

your doomed to walk every stage.

Juan, I don't have a life today either. I'm home sick and bored.

thats alright im trying to fix my pistol, hope you feel better

[Chip_E]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

[kita]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

You may find this link interesting. This is how it starts out:

"It seems to me that many people have the idea that shooting accurately and “calling your shots” are one and the same. These concepts are related, but they are NOT the same thing." ~Ben Stoeger

https://www.facebook...581420898536014

[Chip_E]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

You may find this link interesting. This is how it starts out:

"It seems to me that many people have the idea that shooting accurately and “calling your shots” are one and the same. These concepts are related, but they are NOT the same thing." ~Ben Stoeger

https://www.facebook...581420898536014

Yeah...I agree with that...shot calling is a good habit, but as I said 'accuracy' is the most important thing to focus on.

While shot calling and accuracy are not the same thing...when you learn to call your shots regularly, you should notice what you're doing differently when you get an Alpha vs a Charlie. When you refine that, you become more accurate. I've known instructors whose only advice is "be more aggressive". That doesn't help. Seeing where your sights are on ignition and being able to correct it is what "can" make a difference on accuracy.

BTW, who is this Ben Stoeger guy...you sure seam to think highly of him. Some might even say you're his biggest fan. :-)

Edited March 10, 2013 by Chip_E

[kita]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

You may find this link interesting. This is how it starts out:

"It seems to me that many people have the idea that shooting accurately and “calling your shots” are one and the same. These concepts are related, but they are NOT the same thing." ~Ben Stoeger

https://www.facebook...581420898536014

Yeah...I agree with that...shot calling is a good habit, but as I said 'accuracy' is the most important thing to focus on.

While shot calling and accuracy are not the same thing...when you learn to call your shots regularly, you should notice what you're doing differently when you get an Alpha vs a Charlie. When you refine that, you become more accurate. I've known instructors whose only advice is "be more aggressive". That doesn't help. Seeing where your sights are on ignition and being able to correct it is what "can" make a difference on accuracy.

BTW, who is this Ben Stoeger guy...you sure seam to think highly of him. Some might even say you're his biggest fan. :-)

I hear he's some A-class shooter or something.

[Chip_E]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

You may find this link interesting. This is how it starts out:

"It seems to me that many people have the idea that shooting accurately and “calling your shots” are one and the same. These concepts are related, but they are NOT the same thing." ~Ben Stoeger

https://www.facebook...581420898536014

Yeah...I agree with that...shot calling is a good habit, but as I said 'accuracy' is the most important thing to focus on.

While shot calling and accuracy are not the same thing...when you learn to call your shots regularly, you should notice what you're doing differently when you get an Alpha vs a Charlie. When you refine that, you become more accurate. I've known instructors whose only advice is "be more aggressive". That doesn't help. Seeing where your sights are on ignition and being able to correct it is what "can" make a difference on accuracy.

BTW, who is this Ben Stoeger guy...you sure seam to think highly of him. Some might even say you're his biggest fan. :-)

I hear he's some A-class shooter or something.

Seriously? I thought you had to be at least a Master to have groupies. I mean, who'd sleep with someone that shoots below 85%, or even load their mags and still respect themselves in the morning.

[simonsay]

Learning to shoot in a state of mind that allows you to call every shot may be the most important thing.

BE

It will feel slow, and that's why many are afraid to trust it.

SA

I'm going to combine and borrow these two. It's exactly what I needed to hear.

[kita]

Long post...see the last line for the synopsis.

I'm thinking, if speed was the most important thing we wouldn't use targets at all, and Open class would be select fire (full auto).

This sport is about being accurate as fast as you can, NOT about being as fast as you can and hoping for accuracy. I'm only a B shooter, but I know that as your accuracy improves (calling your shots) your speed naturally improves with it. As shot calling improves, it becomes natural and automatic, then speed comes naturally. I've seen a LOT of newbies come out and try to shoot as fast as they can. I know we've all seen guys taking 3 fast shots on a target, hoping one or two of them will land 'somewhere'. They're surprised when a "slow guy" comes to the line and shoots two well aimed shots on paper and one well aimed shot at each steel target, and beats them by a great margin. Forcing yourself to be fast or accurate will not gain you either. Practicing and calling your shots is imperative. To sum it up...

When shooting accurately becomes natural, speed will as well.

You may find this link interesting. This is how it starts out:

"It seems to me that many people have the idea that shooting accurately and “calling your shots” are one and the same. These concepts are related, but they are NOT the same thing." ~Ben Stoeger

https://www.facebook...581420898536014

Yeah...I agree with that...shot calling is a good habit, but as I said 'accuracy' is the most important thing to focus on.

While shot calling and accuracy are not the same thing...when you learn to call your shots regularly, you should notice what you're doing differently when you get an Alpha vs a Charlie. When you refine that, you become more accurate. I've known instructors whose only advice is "be more aggressive". That doesn't help. Seeing where your sights are on ignition and being able to correct it is what "can" make a difference on accuracy.

BTW, who is this Ben Stoeger guy...you sure seam to think highly of him. Some might even say you're his biggest fan. :-)

I hear he's some A-class shooter or something.

Seriously? I thought you had to be at least a Master to have groupies. I mean, who'd sleep with someone that shoots below 85%, or even load their mags and still respect themselves in the morning.

I don't know, ask Ben.

[benos]

"Learning to shoot in a state of mind that allows you to call every shot may be the most important thing."

I like that better too Brian.

SA

Thanks, SA.

[Liftedranger]

Learning to shoot in a state of mind that allows you to call every shot may be the most important thing.

BE

It will feel slow, and that's why many are afraid to trust it.

SA

I'm going to combine and borrow these two. It's exactly what I needed to hear.

After having "hosed" an idpa classifier yesterday i can understand this 100%. I typically shoot very well in matches. I feel i move well and with speed. And during matches i have no idea where the "bar" is. I only see the shooters of my squad shoot. So until the scores come out i don't know where that "bar" actually is. This helps me shoot my game. I don't feel a pressure to be fast. I simply shoot to my ability. I do need to learn to call shots better. Which i would love if you guys would post up some drills to help this.

Now during the classifier I know where the "bar" is. And i felt a pressure to hit that "bar." And rushed way to fast for my ability. And dropped a lot of points. And at two stages in it was a disaster. I was fast. But that was about all it was. I couldn't tell you where my shots hit till after the fact. And they where bad. Honestly it was embarrassing. I need to slow down and shoot my game. But mentally i just couldn't do it.......

Time to regroup and trust in the fundamentals.

[GuildSF4]

I need to slow down and shoot my game. But mentally i just couldn't do it.......

Time to regroup and trust in the fundamentals.

Not slow down, shoot as fast as you can see what you need to see. If you tell yourself to slow down all the sub-conscious hears is 'SLOW' and that is what you will get.

[gearguywb]

The trick is to be able to pull off the 95% of the speed that you have in practice and combine that with a 5% inprovement in accuracy on race day.

You can never be fast enough to miss and win (at the top levels).

A "D" is really a lucky miss (unless you were aiming at the D zone

[nick m]

this is where I think we mis understand each other. there is so much more then pulling a trigger while shooting a stage.

theres movement. if you walk from point a to point b, and I run. I will win,points the same. if you dont practice going fast.

your doomed to walk every stage.

Unless I'm getting my points while walking.

Shooting from position A, running to position B, and shooting the rest of the targets will always be slower than quickly walking from point A to B while addressing all the targets on the move. I call this, "Efficiency"

Edited May 23, 2013 by nick m

[juan]

this is where I think we mis understand each other. there is so much more then pulling a trigger while shooting a stage.

theres movement. if you walk from point a to point b, and I run. I will win,points the same. if you dont practice going fast.

your doomed to walk every stage.

Unless I'm getting my points while walking.

Shooting from position A, running to position B, and shooting the rest of the targets will always be slower than quickly walking from point A to B while addressing all the targets on the move. I call this, "Efficiency"

I agree, what im trying to say is that speed is a element that needs practice just like accuracy

not a lot of people push there limit in practice and wonder why there not any faster.

[Nimitz]

Try this, count to 50. Now do it again but do it in under 15 secs. Now do it again but under 10 secs. Now do it again even faster.

I'll bet you had no trouble doing it really fast, right? But do you regularly practice counting to ten fast? Probably not so why can you still do it without practicing? It's because you've done it thousands of times for many years and your subconscious knows what to do without thinking about it. Same with shooting, assuming you've learned the proper techniques you will naturally get faster as you do thousands and thousands of reps without really "practicing to go faster". not a perfect analogy but you get the idea ...

Train to learn to shoot accurately and moveorrectly andthepeedwill comewithrepetitions ...

[sandrooney]

I was watching a old tape of the nationals and Todd Jarret telling his strategy for this match was to spend more time on sight and make it up moving. He won that year. A good strategy for any match.

[45dotACP]

Being more in the accuracy side of this little discussion, I think if you are accurate and can manipulate a trigger effectively, you can start incorporating speed until you see your accuracy break down...presumably this is where you practice. This is also the purpose of the Bill Drill unless I'm mistaken.