8.5.2 Holstering a loaded handgun

[Sarge]

8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course

of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions

(see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification

(see Rule 10.5.11).

8.5.2.1 For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.

8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must

be down.

Striker fired guns are DA self loaders. Shouldn't the rule read "External hammers must be down"?

[56hawk]

Striker fired guns are DA self loaders. Shouldn't the rule read "External hammers must be down"?

As far as I can tell the rules for striker fired guns are vague. Some are SA, don't have a safety and are still legal for production class. But it does make me wonder how the rule applies to the Walther P99.

[grapemeister]

I don't think additional wording is necessary, and your wording might lead someone to believe that hammers or strikers not visible outside the gun don't have to be down.....unless I'm missing something in your post, which wouldn't be unusual for me.

If anything, maybe something like this "hammers and strikers, including those not externally visible, must be down." For the purposes of this rule, striker fits the same meaning as hammer."

[grapemeister]

I forgot about 8.1.5 which covers the definitions of single action, double action, and selective action, and specifically addresses strikers, and hammers. Considering 8.1.5, I don't think any more wording in 8.5.2 is necessary.

[Sarge]

My point is, a Glock is a DA striker fired gun. You can't drop the hammer on a loaded Glock unless you want it to go off. So you holster a loaded Glock without dropping the hammer but the rule I quoted seems to make that illegal.

[sperman]

I thought Glock advertised their gun as a Safe Action, neither DA or SA. (I don't see Safe Action covered in the rulebook either.)

[spanky]

My point is, a Glock is a DA striker fired gun. You can't drop the hammer on a loaded Glock unless you want it to go off. So you holster a loaded Glock without dropping the hammer but the rule I quoted seems to make that illegal.

a glock doesn't have a hammer so it's irrelevant.

[grapemeister]

My point is, a Glock is a DA striker fired gun. You can't drop the hammer on a loaded Glock unless you want it to go off. So you holster a loaded Glock without dropping the hammer but the rule I quoted seems to make that illegal.

Dang it, you got me again. I knew I was missing something. Ok, back to the rule book. I'll come up with something....I'm determined.

[Nik Habicht]

My point is, a Glock is a DA striker fired gun. You can't drop the hammer on a loaded Glock unless you want it to go off. So you holster a loaded Glock without dropping the hammer but the rule I quoted seems to make that illegal.

A Glock doesn't have a hammer, hence the requirement is moot.....

Think about it -- you wouldn't be able to holster one at "Make Ready" either.....

[grapemeister]

Nik, it seems that we treat the striker fired guns as single action in some regards, and double action in others. Do you think this is worth tearing apart, and maybe rewording the rules, or just accepting it as is. I don't believe in a black and white world; there's always grey. I've only been around the sport a few years. Has this come up before with the powers that be?

[OUshooter]

I'm sure I'm missing something, but a Glock is a SA by the definition in the book. When you activate the trigger the only thing that happens is the, intermediately cocked striker falls. The recoil drives the system from there and resets the striker not the trigger.

Seems that by the book a DA would go click click click even if the magazine is empty.

Edited March 6, 2013 by OUshooter

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm sure I'm missing something, but a Glock is a SA by the definition in the book. When you activate the trigger the only thing that happens is the, intermediately cocked striker falls. The recoil drives the system from there and resets the striker not the trigger.

Seems that by the book a DA would go click click click even if the magazine is empty.

Might want to take a Glock armorers class. The Glock Striker is only partially cocked. The trigger press finishes the rest of the way. Not quite DA, not SA. The Springfield operates the way you describe.

[ima45dv8]

The Safe Action of a GLOCK is neither fish (single-action) nor fowl (double-action), in this respect.

[OUshooter]

I'm sure I'm missing something, but a Glock is a SA by the definition in the book. When you activate the trigger the only thing that happens is the, intermediately cocked striker falls. The recoil drives the system from there and resets the striker not the trigger.

Seems that by the book a DA would go click click click even if the magazine is empty.

Might want to take a Glock armorers class. The Glock Striker is only partially cocked. The trigger press finishes the rest of the way. Not quite DA, not SA. The Springfield operates the way you describe.

I hear ya. I should be more detailed when describing trigger activation.

My point still stands though. As far as the USPSA rulebook is concerned the Glock is a SA. My reasoning being that of the 8.1.2 series of rules 8.1.2.1 is the only one the Glock can comply with on a loaded start.

Surely we don't need a "safe action" provision. Seems what is there covers it just fine.

Grape mentioned the striker pistols as sometimes being treated as a DA. For my education could someone provide a reference to such a case? Thanks.

Edited March 6, 2013 by OUshooter

[gng4life]

Yep, Chuck hit it on the head. Glocks are considered to have a "pre-loaded striker" is the term I remember from a class. The M&P is the same but the XD is considered to have a completely pre-loaded striker.

[grapemeister]

I'm sure I'm missing something, but a Glock is a SA by the definition in the book. When you activate the trigger the only thing that happens is the, intermediately cocked striker falls. The recoil drives the system from there and resets the striker not the trigger.

Seems that by the book a DA would go click click click even if the magazine is empty.

Might want to take a Glock armorers class. The Glock Striker is only partially cocked. The trigger press finishes the rest of the way. Not quite DA, not SA. The Springfield operates the way you describe.

I hear ya. I should be more detailed when describing trigger activation.

My point still stands though. As far as the USPSA rulebook is concerned the Glock is a SA. My reasoning being that of the 8.1.2 series of rules 8.1.2.1 is the only one the Glock can comply with on a loaded start.

Surely we don't need a "safe action" provision. Seems what is there covers it just fine.

Grape mentioned the striker pistols as sometimes being treated as a DA. For my education could someone provide a reference to such a case? Thanks.

I think you have a good point. I've just assummed that striker fired guns were considered to be DA but the way we apply the rules in USPSA, they are all treated or considered to be SA. It's been about 3 years since I've looked at a IDPA rule book, but it seems that IDPA went as far as putting the different type striker fired gun into different divisions. I shot an XD back then and if I remember correctly, it was considered to be SA, and I was put into some kind of enhanced division, but Glocks were in a different division because of the way the striker mechanism works.

Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want us to go the way of IDPA. I think we should continue treating them as SA, and applying the rules as they have been. It keeps it simple that way.

Thanks, Chris (AKA: Juice, The Juice, Juice Master, Grapemeister, and Grape)

SA is stamped on the grip of my gun, an XD, so I guess it's single action.. :roflol:

Edited March 7, 2013 by grapemeister

[Craig N]

I'm sure I'm missing something, but a Glock is a SA by the definition in the book. When you activate the trigger the only thing that happens is the, intermediately cocked striker falls. The recoil drives the system from there and resets the striker not the trigger.

Seems that by the book a DA would go click click click even if the magazine is empty.

Might want to take a Glock armorers class. The Glock Striker is only partially cocked. The trigger press finishes the rest of the way. Not quite DA, not SA. The Springfield operates the way you describe.

I hear ya. I should be more detailed when describing trigger activation.

My point still stands though. As far as the USPSA rulebook is concerned the Glock is a SA. My reasoning being that of the 8.1.2 series of rules 8.1.2.1 is the only one the Glock can comply with on a loaded start.

Surely we don't need a "safe action" provision. Seems what is there covers it just fine.

Grape mentioned the striker pistols as sometimes being treated as a DA. For my education could someone provide a reference to such a case? Thanks.

I think you have a good point. I've just assummed that striker fired guns were considered to be DA but the way we apply the rules in USPSA, they are all treated or considered to be SA. It's been about 3 years since I've looked at a IDPA rule book, but it seems that IDPA went as far as putting the different type striker fired gun into different divisions. I shot an XD back then and if I remember correctly, it was considered to be SA, and I was put into some kind of enhanced division, but Glocks were in a different division because of the way the striker mechanism works.

Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want us to go the way of IDPA. I think we should continue treating them as SA, and applying the rules as they have been. It keeps it simple that way.

Thanks, Chris (AKA: Juice, The Juice, Juice Master, Grapemeister, and Grape)

SA is stamped on the grip of my gun, an XD, so I guess it's single action.. :roflol:

Springfeild described the XD as a single action gun when it filed with ATF. IDPA just uses that description and some people think it isn't. My whole answer to the XD in ESP is to just sell it and buy a Glock or M&P and shoot in SSP if that's where ya wanna shoot.