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Gun for Production


kdj

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[OK, I know the answer is that I have to try them and see ... but I'm sitting in front of a screen and am not in a gun shop and want to keep thinking about this rather than what I should be doing so:]

Having decided that I want to buy a Production gun, probably USPSA Production but it being IPSC legal would be a bonus, I now have to decide what.

Before everyone jumps in and says Glock 34, I don't like Glocks. I've tried. I've fired hundreds of rounds through them and I am just not comfortable with a Glock! They don't work for me.

Now that I've got that out of the way and half the forum have stopped reading since I'm clearly an idiot, there seem to be three possibilities that come to mind:

1. Springfield XD 5"

Pros: Kinda Glock like ( ;) ), works for TGO, has the right grip angle, consistent trigger, Springfield custom shop

Cons: Kinda Glock like ( :D ), top heavy, stock trigger sucks mildly

2. Para LDA 18.9

Pros: Almost a 1911, works for TJ, points properly, consistent trigger

Cons: I've never shot one :wacko:, long trigger reset

3. CZ-*5 or something

Pros: Nice feel and balance, great trigger after the 1st shot, Angus seems to do OK B)

Cons: Long heavy trigger for 1st shot (although playing with the guns jason had on the table at the Nationals implies that may not always be true)

Any one want to give me any other factors to consider in this process?

Oh, and if it matters, this will be "factory ammo only" since part of the reason for being interested in Production is because I can't even think about changing my press to anything other than 38SC since it's now working perfectly! (Being more serious, I don't want more time devoted to reloading)

Thoughts and opinions? At least, call me an idiot for not wanting a Glock so I have something to read :P

Thanks,

Kevin

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Bruce Gray wrote an excellent article on the various Production guns available and the pros and cons of each in the Jan/Feb 2004 issue of Front Sight. This topic has also been discussed quite a bit on this forum, just use the search function. Different guns are going to fit/point differently for different people.

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Bruce's article was quite good...

seems different guns had different strengths..ease to shoot, ease to reload, accuracy, etc..

You may need to consider that the XD is not on the IPSC approved list...but I think it is OK for USPSA production..

CZ is hopefully importing the CZ75SP01 soon. it is on both approved lists..looks good in that it has heavier frame..supposedly 18 round mags..shorter reach in the DA portion of the trigger..

another possibility would be the Beretta 92 E2..lots of mags around for it.

another fun one..is the Steyr M9..small, low boreline..

other guns that were mentioned in the article..Sigs, HK, Smith 5906..

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Bruce Gray wrote an excellent article on the various Production guns available and the pros and cons of each in the Jan/Feb 2004 issue of Front Sight.

I don't have the Jan 2004 issue of Frontsight ... and I don't know of any way of getting it. No back issues, correct?

I've read the various threads on related topics but I haven't seen a side by side comparison so far.

Kevin

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CZ is hopefully importing the CZ75SP01 soon.

other guns that were mentioned in the article..Sigs, HK, Smith 5906..

I wonder if it'll make it into CA?

I've tried various SIGs. Nice guns (especially with a BG trigger job) but not quite right for me. I shoot my HK P7M8 occationally - not competative and I can't find an M13. I'm not keen on the size and weight of the USP.

I read the thread discussing whether or not there was an arms race in production: I hope so - I don't mind paying for the gun and gunsmith so long as I can avoid reloading ammo :lol:

Kevin

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Although I would buy a G34 for production, I just shot a Sig 226ST and it is the sh*t. It's all stainless with an accesory rail on the dutcover. It weighs a good bit more than the standard 226 and tames what ever recoil the little 9 puts out. It's expensive, but could be a real winner in the production division. YMMV

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My own "stealth" Production gun is the S&W 910 they sent me. the trigger is smooth on the DA, clean on the SA, and this particular one shoots like it was built for PPC. I'm not kidding, the first group I shot was five shots in one cloverleaf.

I can't guarantee every gun will shoot that well, but for a gun that cheap, to shoot so well.....why shoot plastic?

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The S&W 910 or even better 5906 (it's heavier) are excellent choices. They have the shortest trigger reset of any double action pistola. Stock triggers are usually better (double action) than any other brand, and can be tuned to be the best of the tuned double action triggers.

And the trigger is not a difficult reach for the short fingered mutants among us.

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I would have to say try the XD tactical. I shoot Glocks and really prefer the grip angle of the XD better. Sounds like the XD will have as many aftermarket gadgets for it as the Glock does. It would also make a decent limited gun later on if that is what you wanted to do. I would even say take the .40 over the 9. If you are reloading just load light for Prod. High caps will soon be available(baring another stupid AWB). I like the LDA triggers. Very light, but a little long. Large grip on double stack models. My .02.

TXAG

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Ken Hicks, Area 4 director, uses the para lda p18 9mm for his production gun.

hes A class production and finished 18th in the nationals if i remember correctly.

I know my lightweight glock has quite a bit more recoil than his para, his gun is nearly twice as heavy.. I have seen him smoke a couple A and M class Limited shooters with it...SHOOTING WOLF AMMO!!

the only downfall is the para is a pain to reload, the frame is cut off is casting at 90 degrees(you can still see the saw marks) with no magwell and no bevel, it loads like a single stack. also mags are more expensive than glock..

I can shoot the glock, some folks cant, if you can, get one, if you cant, find something else.

THe XDs trigger is funky to me, and it seems like all the extra weight in the slide(that F**ker is HEAVY) causes the muzzle to flip more. I would steer away from XD

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I would recomend the XD if you also shoot a 1911 gun, grip angle the same. Triggers can be sweet ( shameless plug mode #2 pull 1/4 over all travel is the average when I get done with it).Stock sight aren't the best but plenty of options. If you don't want to reload 9mm Tactical. I like the 40 over the 9 much softer than a 9 with reloads. Best thing to do is go shoot all the guns that your interested in then decide for yourself.

Rich

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I was a diehard Glock guy until I shot one of Angus's CZ-75's. Which choice is the best? Who only knows but the lucky shooter who can try every option. For me, the CZ's are accurate, easy to shoot, well built, ergonomic, easy to reload, and fun to shoot.

Take a CZ-75, add a set of sights from Angus, a trigger from Angus and rock n roll in Production division for not much money.

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Kevin,

I won't call you an idiot for rejecting the "plastic fantastic." You're clearly bright enough to potentially see the light at some point in the future, if we don't piss you off too much now..... :lol::lol:

Seriously though: Everything Patrick said about his S&W 910 rings true. I still want to haul mine out to a match someday. I've shot Rhino's old 226, which is the backup gun of a friend of mine. It's very nice --- but his primary, the considerably heavier 226ST is even nicer. Dave Olhasso, who made Production GM shooting the Sigs, now raves about the Berettas, though I don't know for certain which variants.

Go to a rental range and try to shoot a few examples --- that'll probably tell you a lot. Then ask some more specific questions as you narrow the list.....

And if you ever want to talk Glocks, call Flex.... :lol::lol:

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Interesting discussion ... and has achieved the primary purpose of keeping me thinking about guns and not work :P I'd really like to like Glocks but they just don't fit me.

A couple of points: I'm only interested in Production, since if I do shoot Limited, it would be with a fully custom SV (get the right tool for the right job). So, 9mm is probably the way to go and it does have to be factory since I'm not going to reload for this beast - I can barely keep up with my Open gun's eating habits! I'm not really cost sensitive since compared to Open guns, even the most outrageous stretch on a production gun seems reasonable - it's good to get your standards warped early then everything seems more manageable after that :)

I've shot the XD, and for me, it rates as OK. I haven't shot a CZ since the '80s but I did like the way it felt. I also got to try the various guns on the CZ table at the Nationals, including Mathews and they were nice. The CZ is a real possibility.

I'm tempted by the Para since the hand position would be identical (well, very close) to my Open SV, including the thumb on the safety.

I hadn't really thought about the mag well issue. Is there that much difference between the various guns? Can any of them be as bad as the P7 :P

OK, I'm going to go and find a gun shop where I can fondle a CZ and an LDA and see if I'm tempted. I'll look at the S&Ws too since this is the first time I've heard those mentioned as possibilities.

Thanks for the inputs and keep the comments coming ...

Kevin

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Dave Olhasso, who made Production GM shooting the Sigs, now raves about the Berettas, though I don't know for certain which variants.

I think he shoots a 96 Vertec, look through old posts he probably mentions it for sure, and I think I saw a picture of him in front sight wth the vertec, and it led me to my current holster. (and a few trips from David :) )

Kevin: If you want to try the 92FS or the 96 Vertec, let me know, I've been shooting the Vertec at Richmond lately. I hated the trigger, but now I'm quite used to it. They both went to Langdon for trigger work. Even then, compared to a 1911, or STI/SVI, it's still ghastly. And I really enjoying shooting it.

Someone on the board tried it, and asked why I'd have 2 :lol: , he's in the Glock camp.

I replaced the sights, with a more (for me) normal Bo-Mar style. Unlike the Elites your stuck with the front, unless you have it milled.

The 92 has no recoil, the 96, just a smidge, I just want all 40 to load.

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I managed to handle both a CZ-75B and an LDA this evening.

CZ-75B: Nice gun. Pretty well manufactured. Feels a little small to me. Saftey is not the right shape. Double action trigger is F*****G aweful. Long, *heavy*, gritty, doesn't break crisply. Single action trigger is moderately aweful. Not clean and crisp but only somewhat too heavy. I don't consider this useable out of the box but I suppose it could be made to work by someone who knows how to make these triggers right.

LDA: I could only find a 7.45 which is a single stack and not what I'd be interested in since I like the feel of a widebody better. Feels like a 1911. Not a very well fitted 1911 but still a 1911. Trigger is amazingly long but amazingly light. Break is a little coarse but not too bad. If the 18.9 feels more like a double stack and the break of the trigger could be cleaned up, this would probably be the leading candidate.

Now, I need to find a 18.9, find somewhere to shoot one and then find someone who's an expert on LDA triggers. Shooting one may change my mind since I can see the reset is long and there was no way I could really evaluate that.

I should also try to find a CZ with a decent trigger since my perception of that gun was dominated by my hatred for the trigger.

I tried the SIG and it doesn't work for me, even with a Bruce Gray trigger (nice!). Ditto the USP and the 92. I couldn't find any of the S&W suggestions.

I definitely don't believe Production is an out of the box division any more. Clearly, every gun being used by high end competitors must have had at least trigger work just to preserve sanity! :P

This is fun,

Kevin

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I definitely don't believe Production is an out of the box division any more. Clearly, every gun being used by high end competitors must have had at least trigger work just to preserve sanity!  :P

Triggers (and often sights) in production guns just plain suck. Thankfully, many can be cleaned up by almost any handy tinkerer...or sent out for some tuning by somebody that does so on a more regular basis.

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I've shot Rhino's old 226, which is the backup gun of a friend of mine. It's very nice ---

Hey, Nik!

I still miss the old girl, and the fact that she has a good home with good people makes me a feel a little better about not having her around anymore.

Did he get any work done on the trigger?

I think that if my trigger finger were 1/4 inch longer, that gun would still be here. In fact, it might have remained my #1 carry gun!

I'm getting all misty eyed ... :lol:

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Joseph,

Nope ---- the trigger is still the same --- takes a weightlifter to compress the DA but only an anorexic ballerina to trip the SA. He bought both guns within weeks of each other, shot both in practice extensively, decided to go with the ST as his competition gun, and burned out on competition about six months later......

Mark still practices semi-regularly; but is devoting more time to work at the moment.

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