Free to point gun at face in safe area?

[Hi-Power Jack]

a super senior last year DQ, and after unloading, he

pointed the "empty" gun at his own face

Just out of curiosity, did this occur in a safety area or at ULSC?

Bill

Bill, he just completed the COF, and was unloading when he

looked down the barrel - pretty sure he was unloaded at least.

[Jerome]

So, anyone using a squib rod is DQ'd unless the barrel is removed from the gun?

[Sarge]

So, anyone using a squib rod is DQ'd unless the barrel is removed from the gun?

We have discussed this before on here. Not even sure it came to a conclusion though. But myself, I don't see how you can possibly put a squib rod down a barrel without sweeping yourself and being DQ'd. The best tip I saw on here is to have a zip tie handy to try to run up the barrel from the breech end.

As for the safety area, The gun should always be disassembled before messing with the muzzle end. Besides, Jamming a bullet out the back of a barrel can damage things like extractors etc. There is generally considerable pounding going on and I don't want the rod banging off my breechface.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree that it's pretty simple ..... common sense says even though there's no rule that explicitly says you can & will be DQ'd for breaking the 180 (181~190) you still just can't point the gun 270* uprange and directly towords a crowd of people.

But why can't it be written in black and white when everything else about gun handling on the range is?

And I'm sure you're going to say "Unsafe gun handling" covers it, but if so then why not say the same about a COF?

We have multiple chapters in the rulebook addressing courses of fire -- in part because that's when guns and ammo come together. We have a few paragraphs on Safe Areas/Tables -- in part I think because we want to allow for some flexibility in their construction siting on the range.....

Could we have better definitions? Sure -- but I don't think there's anything unclear about "safe direction."

[whitedog]

IMHO....,pounding a squib in the wrong direction is asking for broken parts. Remove the barrel and knock it out towards muzzle. As that's the direction it wants to go.

As for the D.Q. I would go for unsafe handling.

Of course if the slide was locked back, and bore light used I may just call him a ninny and suggest he not do that. Sort of depends on how it's done I guess.

[Sarge]

IMHO....,pounding a squib in the wrong direction is asking for broken parts. Remove the barrel and knock it out towards muzzle. As that's the direction it wants to go.

Dave, That won't work. Unless the bullet is very close to coming out of the muzzle you will never be able to pound a bullet out that way. Squibs are "typically" just outside of the chamber and going backwards is the only way out. This is why you want to get the barrel out of the gun. So you don't break anything

[ctay]

I guess I have to go against the grain here. I don't see how we should have a DQ in a safe area just because the part of the body being swept was his face and not his hand. would I do this? No way. However even though it is unwise I don't believe it should be a DQ. Working on guns will inevitably lead to a sweep of a part of you body. That is why we have a safe area with no ammunition.

Just my thoughts.

[outerlimits]

I guess I have to go against the grain here. I don't see how we should have a DQ in a safe area just because the part of the body being swept was his face and not his hand. would I do this? No way. However even though it is unwise I don't believe it should be a DQ. Working on guns will inevitably lead to a sweep of a part of you body. That is why we have a safe area with no ammunition.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. How the heck would you change chokes on a shotgun...which IS allowed in all MG rule sets?

[atbarr]

I guess I have to go against the grain here. I don't see how we should have a DQ in a safe area just because the part of the body being swept was his face and not his hand. would I do this? No way. However even though it is unwise I don't believe it should be a DQ. Working on guns will inevitably lead to a sweep of a part of you body. That is why we have a safe area with no ammunition.

Just my thoughts.

When he's brings the gun up to his eye, he is pointing it out of the safety area, and probably at someone.

[Sarge]

I guess I have to go against the grain here. I don't see how we should have a DQ in a safe area just because the part of the body being swept was his face and not his hand. would I do this? No way. However even though it is unwise I don't believe it should be a DQ. Working on guns will inevitably lead to a sweep of a part of you body. That is why we have a safe area with no ammunition.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. How the heck would you change chokes on a shotgun...which IS allowed in all MG rule sets?

Different rules right? You can do a lot with a pistol and not sweep yourself. Get the barrel out of the gun and then work on it.

[ac4wordplay]

Agreed. How the heck would you change chokes on a shotgun...which IS allowed in all MG rule sets?

You need to point your shotgun at your face whenever you change chokes?!

[coldchar]

I think we are using two definitions of squib. If there is still a round in the chamber then he should never have been allowed to leave the bay until the gun had been made safe i.e. inoperable. Lots of gun type people can disassemble a gun until bagging it and leaving the bay is a safe course of action. As there is a live round or potentially one in the action somewhere, going to the safety area is inappropriate. To me that is not a squib.

If the round discharged, i.e. primer went off and the bullet stuck in the barrel or between the forcing cone and the cylinder, then ending the course of fire and the shooter going to the safety area to get out the rod and hammer poses no threat to anyone. DQing someone for looking down the barrel under that circumstance seems really excessive. To me that is a squib.

Jim

[outerlimits]

Agreed. How the heck would you change chokes on a shotgun...which IS allowed in all MG rule sets?

You need to point your shotgun at your face whenever you change chokes?!

of course not...but you cannot avoid sweeping yer hand. just sayin'.

[EkuJustice]

I say no DQ especially if the slide is locked back. Even disassembling some guns to work on them your definitely sweeping yourself especially with a 2 piece guide rod.

[old506]

Beat me to the 2 piece guide rod.

I say no DQ especially if the slide is locked back. Even disassembling some guns to work on them your definitely sweeping yourself especially with a 2 piece guide rod.

[old506]

Or putting my ultra tight bushing back on my barrel.

[whitedog]

Sarge...strange. I have had 4 squibs, all with gov't 1911. Pulled barrel, used bench block, all out muzzle end. Never thought of going breech end. They all came out with a bit of whacking. Learn something new everyday I guess.

Thanks.

[Adam Sills]

And here I thought someone would just point out a rule number I missed. I will say - to wrap up my involvement in this thread since I think my question has basically been answered - that no matter what the situation I don't think the safe area is a place to point a gun at your face. While it may be technically safe due to the fact that you know it's unloaded and has been checked clear numerous times before it was pointed at your face, it probably shows a pattern of looseness for safety rules to be the type to just up and point a gun at your face in a situation like this.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Adam Sills

[twodownzero]

Something like looking down the muzzle end of an assembled blaster -- immediate DQ.....

Rare that I agree with Nik, but I sure do this time.

There is never a time when pointing an assembled firearm at one's head is "in a safe direction" and there is no straight face argument that such a thing could ever be the case.

Squib rod down the bore of a gun with the slide locked back would be a close case, which I would resolve in favor of the shooter.

Pointing a gun at one's head, never safe, never acceptable, always a DQ.

[Blueridge]

I would also have to agree with BritinUSA and R2D2. And mostly with Flatland, although I would say slide open or slide shut doesn't matter still DQ.

Dis-assembled barrel only, I am OK with that.

Ah, but what about revolvers? Would the shooter have to remove the cylinder (dissasemble) before they could check the barrel under the idea that you suggest?

While I don't think that pointing a firearm at yourself is a good idea in general, checking for a blockage in a barrel with the firearm unloaded and the action open (or the cylinder swung out) would be an acceptable action.

Revolvers aren't semi-autos. A semi-auto with the slide back, could have the slide release bumped, the slide slam shut, the hammer follow, and bang.....

Hard to see the same thing happening if a revolver's cylinder closes.....

You are quite correct. My point in posting was to highlight the idea that revolvers were not considered in the initial post. You clearly recognize the difference between revolvers and semi-autos when it come to safety issues, but with the majority of participants using semi-autos sometimes the differences are overlooked.

[JimmyZip]

Something like looking down the muzzle end of an assembled blaster -- immediate DQ.....

Rare that I agree with Nik, but I sure do this time.

There is never a time when pointing an assembled firearm at one's head is "in a safe direction" and there is no straight face argument that such a thing could ever be the case.

Squib rod down the bore of a gun with the slide locked back would be a close case, which I would resolve in favor of the shooter.

Pointing a gun at one's head, never safe, never acceptable, always a DQ.

IDK, what bout locking the slide back and letting the sun shine into the breech and looking down the muzzle then? With your finger in the breech to reflect light up the barrel? I just do not see how this is a DQable offense. I have seen this done many times checking to see how dirty a barrel is during a practice session. Just do not see how a locked open weapon without a magazine in the well is unsafe to inspect even from the bore end.

[Nik Habicht]

I guess I have to go against the grain here. I don't see how we should have a DQ in a safe area just because the part of the body being swept was his face and not his hand. would I do this? No way. However even though it is unwise I don't believe it should be a DQ. Working on guns will inevitably lead to a sweep of a part of you body. That is why we have a safe area with no ammunition.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. How the heck would you change chokes on a shotgun...which IS allowed in all MG rule sets?

So both of you are prepared to guarantee that all guns handled at all safe tables are always unloaded? And you're both comfortable with having guns pointed at you by folks working on them in the safe areas?

I think there's a huge difference between changing a choke, and pointing a muzzle at anyone's face, but hey, that just be me.....

[Nik Habicht]

Something like looking down the muzzle end of an assembled blaster -- immediate DQ.....

Rare that I agree with Nik, but I sure do this time.

There is never a time when pointing an assembled firearm at one's head is "in a safe direction" and there is no straight face argument that such a thing could ever be the case.

Squib rod down the bore of a gun with the slide locked back would be a close case, which I would resolve in favor of the shooter.

Pointing a gun at one's head, never safe, never acceptable, always a DQ.

IDK, what bout locking the slide back and letting the sun shine into the breech and looking down the muzzle then? With your finger in the breech to reflect light up the barrel? I just do not see how this is a DQable offense. I have seen this done many times checking to see how dirty a barrel is during a practice session. Just do not see how a locked open weapon without a magazine in the well is unsafe to inspect even from the bore end.

What you do in practice, by yourself, is one thing. If I see you sweep a muzzle across some else, while trying to invert the gun so you can look down the barrel --- that's when I'll need to do something, to ensure the safety of all participants at the match.

In other words, while I wish you'd respect your health and life identically in match and practice settings, I do realize that we all sometimes take chances when the risk is confined to ourselves, as opposed to putting others potentially into harms way

[ima45dv8]

Something like looking down the muzzle end of an assembled blaster -- immediate DQ.....

Rare that I agree with Nik, but I sure do this time.

There is never a time when pointing an assembled firearm at one's head is "in a safe direction" and there is no straight face argument that such a thing could ever be the case.

Squib rod down the bore of a gun with the slide locked back would be a close case, which I would resolve in favor of the shooter.

Pointing a gun at one's head, never safe, never acceptable, always a DQ.

Tim? Are you sitting down?

I agree with YOU!

[Nik Habicht]

Something like looking down the muzzle end of an assembled blaster -- immediate DQ.....

Rare that I agree with Nik, but I sure do this time.

There is never a time when pointing an assembled firearm at one's head is "in a safe direction" and there is no straight face argument that such a thing could ever be the case.

Squib rod down the bore of a gun with the slide locked back would be a close case, which I would resolve in favor of the shooter.

Pointing a gun at one's head, never safe, never acceptable, always a DQ.

Tim? Are you sitting down?

I agree with YOU!

The planet might come to an end......

:devil: