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Does Shooting For Speed Come at the Expense of Follow Through?


toothguy
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Lately I have had an interesting conversation with TGO about this. When shooting for speed, should you wait for the sights or dot to lift, or would it be better to build a strong index, grip ect., that keeps the gun on target as you finish the shot? Effectively eliminating follow through, better utilizing that time and attention to set up the next shot.

Edited by toothguy
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Effectively eliminating follow through,

When you say "Follow through", what do you mean exactly?

Focus placed on the front sight as the gun goes off. Seeing the front sight lift and many times the muzzel flash. There is a delay in attention to make sure visually the gun doesn't move (usually due to the trigger pull) that split second before and after the bullet exits the barrel.

What if you could aim the pistol with an acceptable sight picture and depend on your index, grip, stance ect. to hold the gun fairly motionless. Your index could take over that last tenth of a second of the trigger pull, just as or before the sights start to lift. The slight delay used to verify the sight picture could be used to acquire the next target. A good trigger pull would obviously go a long way in keeping the gun on target.

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The key word there is "verify". When you're in the zone, there is no verify, there is reaction to the sight picture when the shot broke (if it was off). The discrete "steps" don't happen. I've been there a couple times—and am working on getting back there—but right now it's still a quick "crap, that shot was off, make it up" that goes through my head (if not a "that didn't look right... hope for the best, keep shooting").

I don't think speed is anathema to follow-through (or vice versa), it's just an issue of learning to process at high speed and seeing what you need to see, which may be less than what one considers "follow-through", but it isn't not seeing the shot break (pardon the double negative).

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Go back and read the section of BE's book that describes sight pictures. What you need to see depends on what you need to see. Close full targets are not going to require the same amount of followthrough as a 25m plate rack. So what you need to see for each will vary.

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I wonder if those guys who can call their shots bother to follow thru? I mean they already know where it hit before they even ride the recoil back down. And you see cadence firing where your bringing the gun down to your next shot after the recoil rather than following thru on your last shot. Man I wish I was that good.

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Go back and read the section of BE's book that describes sight pictures. What you need to see depends on what you need to see. Close full targets are not going to require the same amount of followthrough as a 25m plate rack. So what you need to see for each will vary.

It seems like high accuracy shooters develope a type of tunnel vision over the years limiting speed because they stand and shoot without moving. Speed shooters seem to develope a more peripheral focus due to constant movement. High skill levels are developed that focus atttention differently. When we see what we need to see, it will be viewed differently due to focus and training.

Edited by toothguy
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I wonder if those guys who can call their shots bother to follow thru? I mean they already know where it hit before they even ride the recoil back down. And you see cadence firing where your bringing the gun down to your next shot after the recoil rather than following thru on your last shot. Man I wish I was that good.

I think that someone like TGO can aim the gun and then place his peripheral attention to another target, shoot and still get good hits.

Edited by toothguy
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Go back and read the section of BE's book that describes sight pictures. What you need to see depends on what you need to see. Close full targets are not going to require the same amount of followthrough as a 25m plate rack. So what you need to see for each will vary.

It seems like high accuracy shooters develope a type of tunnel vision over the years limiting speed because they stand and shoot without moving. Speed shooters seem to develope a more peripheral focus due to constant movement. High skill levels are developed that focus atttention differently. When we see what we need to see, it will be viewed differently due to focus and training.

They shoot slow because they never learned to shoot fast. If you've never needed the type of high speed seeing that is required by IPSC or Steel shooting then you'll never develop it.

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I wonder if those guys who can call their shots bother to follow thru? I mean they already know where it hit before they even ride the recoil back down. And you see cadence firing where your bringing the gun down to your next shot after the recoil rather than following thru on your last shot. Man I wish I was that good.

I think that someone like TGO can aim the gun and then place his peripheral attention to another target, shoot and still get good hits.

I think I see what you are getting at now, you don't believe it is possible to see fast enough to call your shot on a target before moving to the next one? Or that you can't possibly see fast enough to see the sight between shots or after they have pulled the trigger? Trust me you can you just need to develop that skill. And if you aren't you are shooting too fast for your skill level.

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I think that someone like TGO can aim the gun and then place his peripheral attention to another target, shoot and still get good hits.

I read the other thread (now) where TGO is speaking with you on this. You are right that he has a fantastic index. Early on, it was watching him shoot that got me thinking of index in terms of yards (actually, degrees of arc...but, yards are easier to think about).

We are probably playing the language game here a bit. Many of us here speak of follow through a bit different than what TGO was saying in the other thread.

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Effectively eliminating follow through,

When you say "Follow through", what do you mean exactly?

Focus placed on the front sight as the gun goes off. Seeing the front sight lift and many times the muzzel flash. There is a delay in attention to make sure visually the gun doesn't move (usually due to the trigger pull) that split second before and after the bullet exits the barrel.

What if you could aim the pistol with an acceptable sight picture and depend on your index, grip, stance ect. to hold the gun fairly motionless. Your index could take over that last tenth of a second of the trigger pull, just as or before the sights start to lift. The slight delay used to verify the sight picture could be used to acquire the next target. A good trigger pull would obviously go a long way in keeping the gun on target.

The terminology here makes it tough for me to follow what you are saying. I guess I don’t get what you are proposing or why it would be desirable to do it.

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In simple terms he is suggesting that you aim the gun and as you start to press the trigger you look to the next target. It is probably the best possible way to achieve misses on a stage.

Since your sharp vision is only a very small area, the size of your thumb when your hand is extended, the rest of the visual input is peripheral vision. I wonder if speed shooters rely on more visual input from peripheral vision and high accuracy shooters are limited by it.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see, but that would depend on what you have trained yourself to see. I'm thinking speed shooters are opening there vision.

Edited by toothguy
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In simple terms he is suggesting that you aim the gun and as you start to press the trigger you look to the next target. It is probably the best possible way to achieve misses on a stage.

Since your sharp vision is only a very small area, the size of your thumb when your hand is extended, the rest of the visual input is peripheral vision. I wonder if speed shooters rely on more visual input from peripheral vision and high accuracy shooters are limited by it.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see, but that would depend on what you have trained yourself to see.

Oh. It is certainly good to have the next target in your peripheral vision. It isn't anything special that you need to train to do. If you have it peripherally in your vision you can then just snap your eyes right to it when you get done with the target you are actually shooting.

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In simple terms he is suggesting that you aim the gun and as you start to press the trigger you look to the next target. It is probably the best possible way to achieve misses on a stage.

Since your sharp vision is only a very small area, the size of your thumb when your hand is extended, the rest of the visual input is peripheral vision. I wonder if speed shooters rely on more visual input from peripheral vision and high accuracy shooters are limited by it.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see, but that would depend on what you have trained yourself to see.

Oh. It is certainly good to have the next target in your peripheral vision. It isn't anything special that you need to train to do. If you have it peripherally in your vision you can then just snap your eyes right to it when you get done with the target you are actually shooting.

I just read through the other thread too. I see that you are coming from a more precision background so there might be some disconnect. What you call followthrough and what we consider followthrough are quite a bit different. We want to minimize followthrough because anything that delays us getting to the next shot slows us down...however we still need to ensure each shot hits its intended target. I can tell you for certain that moving your eyes to the next target before you have completed a shot will get a miss. On real close warp speed stages, especially with the open gun, I still want to see a sight picture, not because I'm trying to be precise but rather because it slows me down enough that I am shooting the shot on target and not dragging it off target as my eyes scan across to the next one. Bear in mind I'm talkins splits on target of .14-.16 and transitions of around the same tono longer than .18. What you call a sight picture at that point and what I call one are not the same. With a dot its pretty easy just to hold a target focus and see the little red dot appear where it needs to be, but with a iron sighted gun I am more likely to keep a target focus and look either through the sights or depending on the target look off the top of the slide or even silhouette the slide on the target at least to the point of ignition at which point I will look to the next target.

A good drill I use for this I call The Twenty, since the HHF (high hit factor) goal is to hit a 20 hit factor. Pick your own HF but it should be something that forces you to shoot at the absolute limit of speed you are capable of.

Set up three (or four, its actually easier) targets at 5m and set them 1m apart. Stand facing the targets and on the start signal Draw and shoot two shots on each. These are close easy targets so you can go fast, but to hit a 20 HF you have to be at your speed limit AND shoot only A's. With three targets you have to shoot all A's in 1.5 seconds and with 4 targets you need to shoot all A's in 2.0 seconds. Pat attention to what you are seeing or needing to see to achieve good hits and what causes you to not get your A's.

Set

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In simple terms he is suggesting that you aim the gun and as you start to press the trigger you look to the next target. It is probably the best possible way to achieve misses on a stage.

Since your sharp vision is only a very small area, the size of your thumb when your hand is extended, the rest of the visual input is peripheral vision. I wonder if speed shooters rely on more visual input from peripheral vision and high accuracy shooters are limited by it.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see, but that would depend on what you have trained yourself to see.

Oh. It is certainly good to have the next target in your peripheral vision. It isn't anything special that you need to train to do. If you have it peripherally in your vision you can then just snap your eyes right to it when you get done with the target you are actually shooting.

High accuracy shooters disregard the peripheral to eliminate distractions. They know they and the target aren't going to move. They get all there visual information from the sharpest area of vision. They have trained there sharp vision to stay in place. Like shooting with blinders on, and many of us actually do shoot with blinders. I have watched many speed shooters become frustrated with accuracy and precision shooters crawl along. The best shooters seem to be pretty good at both but don't specialize.

I thinking of shooting USPSA again and I am going to try to strike a balance.

Edited by toothguy
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In simple terms he is suggesting that you aim the gun and as you start to press the trigger you look to the next target. It is probably the best possible way to achieve misses on a stage.

Since your sharp vision is only a very small area, the size of your thumb when your hand is extended, the rest of the visual input is peripheral vision. I wonder if speed shooters rely on more visual input from peripheral vision and high accuracy shooters are limited by it.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see, but that would depend on what you have trained yourself to see.

Oh. It is certainly good to have the next target in your peripheral vision. It isn't anything special that you need to train to do. If you have it peripherally in your vision you can then just snap your eyes right to it when you get done with the target you are actually shooting.

High accuracy shooters disregard the peripheral to eliminate distractions. They know they and the target aren't going to move. They get all there visual information from the sharpest area of vision. They have trained there sharp vision to stay in place. Like shooting with blinders on, and many of us actually do shoot with blinders. I have watched many speed shooters become frustrated with accuracy and precision shooters crawl along. The best shooters seem to be pretty good at both but don't specialize.

I thinking of shooting USPSA again and I am going to try to strike a balance.

Most targets aren't that far away. Do you really need to focus on high accuracy on most of them? Is it possible to be fully aware of your surroundings while still completing one task at a time? When adrenaline is released, one becomes hypervigilant, no?

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High accuracy shooters disregard the peripheral to eliminate distractions. They know they and the target aren't going to move. They get all there visual information from the sharpest area of vision. They have trained there sharp vision to stay in place. Like shooting with blinders on, and many of us actually do shoot with blinders. I have watched many speed shooters become frustrated with accuracy and precision shooters crawl along. The best shooters seem to be pretty good at both but don't specialize.

So what? What follows from this, if anything?

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High accuracy shooters disregard the peripheral to eliminate distractions. They know they and the target aren't going to move. They get all there visual information from the sharpest area of vision. They have trained there sharp vision to stay in place. Like shooting with blinders on, and many of us actually do shoot with blinders. I have watched many speed shooters become frustrated with accuracy and precision shooters crawl along. The best shooters seem to be pretty good at both but don't specialize.

So what? What follows from this, if anything?

Who's a better shooter TGO or Brian Zins? There is no answer to that even though they both shoot 1911's. Why not? isn't shooting just shooting? A better understanding of the different perceptions might make me a better shooter.

Edited by toothguy
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High accuracy shooters disregard the peripheral to eliminate distractions. They know they and the target aren't going to move. They get all there visual information from the sharpest area of vision. They have trained there sharp vision to stay in place. Like shooting with blinders on, and many of us actually do shoot with blinders. I have watched many speed shooters become frustrated with accuracy and precision shooters crawl along. The best shooters seem to be pretty good at both but don't specialize.

So what? What follows from this, if anything?

Who's a better shooter TGO or Brian Zins? There is no answer to that even though they both shoot 1911's. Why not? isn't shooting just shooting? A better understanding of the different perceptions might make me a better shooter.

Huh? Can you connect the dots for me? This doesn't seem to follow from what you posted prior.

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I was using two great shooters from different games that can't be compared although they use like equipment. There isn't a direct comparison because the games have a different focus so the training is different. I don't speed shoot but I'm thinking of comming back this summer. It sounds like I will need accept less at the expense of follow through and some sight picture. I think if you are aware of that it will help in the transition process so you don't frustrate yourself.

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