3 Gun Nation Classifiers

[Jesse Tischauser]

Intersting point about being tired Pat. Thats a big part of accurate pistol shooting and having the patience to make the shots count.

Let me rephrase My thoughts. My first thought when Larry had a bunch of multiple choice targets at the FNH match was cool another challenge in figuring out the break over point time wise of a gun transition or a shotgun load or pistol mag change. But what I am starting to see now Is guys that either can't load the shotgun or can't shoot the pistol simply avoiding their weakness. Having the option seems to help a weaker shooter more so. I guess I kinda always liked the challenge in 3 gun of being a master at all 3 guns instead of being good at 1-2 guns and avoiding the 3rd any time possible.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

Intersting point about being tired Pat. Thats a big part of accurate pistol shooting and having the patience to make the shots count.

Let me rephrase My thoughts. My first thought when Larry had a bunch of multiple choice targets at the FNH match was cool another challenge in figuring out the break over point time wise of a gun transition or a shotgun load or pistol mag change. But what I am starting to see now Is guys that either can't load the shotgun or can't shoot the pistol simply avoiding their weakness. Having the option seems to help a weaker shooter more so. I guess I kinda always liked the challenge in 3 gun of being a master at all 3 guns instead of being good at 1-2 guns and avoiding the 3rd any time possible.

That resorting of brain cells I can agree with. It is also why there are some majors I won't go shoot...not enough of one of the three.

[P.E. Kelley]

Intersting point about being tired Pat. Thats a big part of accurate pistol shooting and having the patience to make the shots count.

Let me rephrase My thoughts. My first thought when Larry had a bunch of multiple choice targets at the FNH match was cool another challenge in figuring out the break over point time wise of a gun transition or a shotgun load or pistol mag change. But what I am starting to see now Is guys that either can't load the shotgun or can't shoot the pistol simply avoiding their weakness. Having the option seems to help a weaker shooter more so. I guess I kinda always liked the challenge in 3 gun of being a master at all 3 guns instead of being good at 1-2 guns and avoiding the 3rd any time possible.

I am following you to a point JT, but you know I CAN shoot a pistol AND I can reload a shotgun. I chose the best way to solve the shooting problem. That is a (was) a founding principle of Practical Shooting. I like the option stages!

[KentG]

I am one of the shooters you describe. Pistol has always been and always will be my weak link. I think I have actually figured out a couple things in this off season and have improved my pistol somewhat after many years. Shooting open when I can take targets without reloading is an easy call. Even if I were still running TAC optic and loading a sx2 I would probably load shotgun to finish this stage vs pistol.. I suspect more than a few will go that route. Maybe.

If the guys making these stages wanted to level the playing field mandate which gun is used on targets. My score on this will be artificially high but I understand why. Another pistol heavy classifier will pull my score down closer to how well I really shoot. I'm not going to fret one way or another, I'm doing this for the fun not a job.

[Jesse Tischauser]

There was a stage at this years FNH match. For those that shot it it was the one with the 50 yard off hand rifle plate rack. I was shooting with some if the top guys like Hannish, Garcia, Ray, Thacker burkett, etc. we all decided to shoot the rifle first at the plate rack. Burkett and Garcia went one for one on the plate rack and ran the stage in around 30-32 seconds. Great runs! Larry was watching our squad and As I'm on deck He tells me he dump the rifle instantly after the up close target you had to engage with rifle and run the 50 yards hosing the paper along the way that everyone else on my squad shot with rifle. Then shoot the plate rack from 12-18 yards with the pistol. two guys on Larry's squad ran it in 25-28 seconds with a pistol being their primary gun.

I though no effin way! Plus it was too late for me to change my game plan. But Larry was right and we were all wrong. Now was it luck that his squad knew to shoot it their way or was it something they figured out on the practice range? My guess was it was more lucky than good and Point being the optional stuff didn't decide who was a better shooters it decided who guessed the best way of shooting the stage. Gaming? I dunno it didn't feel like the typical out gamed situation. It seemed like the only way to know for sure was to try it both ways because it was too complex to count splits and sprint times.

I dunno what's right or wrong but it's definitely a new way of stage design that in all my long 3 years of shooting hasn't really come into play as a skill I needed. Guess its time to bust out the timer and go practice.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

If you know your metrics, you can figure it out instead of guess. The options are a part of the game that has largely gone bye-bye for various reasons, but one a lot of shooters enjoy.

[P.E. Kelley]

Don't get me wrong. While I like, choices I would rather it be a shooting contest than a thinking contest as I do the former better!

Memory stages are the worst!

[Bryan 45]

Don't get me wrong. While I like, choices I would rather it be a shooting contest than a thinking contest as I do the former better!

Memory stages are the worst!

Amen! Let my trigger finger, eyes, and feet be my guide on the stage. The less my brain has to do, the better off.

And Jesse, I wish you hadn't brought up that stage from FNH. Just as the nightmares stopped, you had to remind me...

[Dan Sierpina]

Jesse, that stage at FNH had a low time of 26.8 seconds, or close to that. Bruce Piatt had that time. He shot all the paper and the plate rack with the rifle, then did the rest with the shotgun. He took the poppers with shot, not slugs. I think Rustin was the next fastest time at around 29 seconds. I think Keith Garcia might have beaten Bruce if his shotgun hadn't gotten tied up with a foreign object. I worked that stage. NO ONE shot a 25 second time with any combination. Eric Lund had the fastest time for just the one target with the rifle and ran down with the pistol, maybe 35 seconds, no 25. I think he used the pistol on the plates everyone shot with shotgun.

I like the option stages. It gives a shooter an out if one of his guns chokes too.

If you want to be told how to shoot a stage, you can play the game with the fishing attire.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Dan Sierpina

[Bryan 45]

Dan, thanks for the laugh! You talking about the "shoot me first" vest?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Oops

Edited April 10, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Dan Sierpina]

Dan, thanks for the laugh! You talking about the "shoot me first" vest?

Bryan, no name is mentioned. You can figure as you want.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, that stage at FNH had a low time of 26.8 seconds, or close to that. Bruce Piatt had that time. He shot all the paper and the plate rack with the rifle, then did the rest with the shotgun. He took the poppers with shot, not slugs. I think Rustin was the next fastest time at around 29 seconds. I think Keith Garcia might have beaten Bruce if his shotgun hadn't gotten tied up with a foreign object. I worked that stage. NO ONE shot a 25 second time with any combination. Eric Lund had the fastest time for just the one target with the rifle and ran down with the pistol, maybe 35 seconds, no 25. I think he used the pistol on the plates everyone shot with shotgun.

I like the option stages. It gives a shooter an out if one of his guns chokes too.

If you want to be told how to shoot a stage, you can play the game with the fishing attire.

Damn Dan you have a good memory. It was actually 26.6 seconds though. Lund shot it in 30.28 and Larry shot it in 29.05 with a 5 second penalty. The run fast rather than shoot slow was likely a safer bet for me as I sucked on the plate rack with my rifle. I guess the moral of that story is never listen to Larry Houck for stage planning advice! After thinking that we all got our a$$es handed to us I started hating the guess your gun stages. I definitely don't want to be told how to shoot a stage I am just starting to like 3 gun more and more as compared to 2 gun.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I am one of the shooters you describe. Pistol has always been and always will be my weak link. I think I have actually figured out a couple things in this off season and have improved my pistol somewhat after many years. Shooting open when I can take targets without reloading is an easy call. Even if I were still running TAC optic and loading a sx2 I would probably load shotgun to finish this stage vs pistol.. I suspect more than a few will go that route. Maybe.

If the guys making these stages wanted to level the playing field mandate which gun is used on targets. My score on this will be artificially high but I understand why. Another pistol heavy classifier will pull my score down closer to how well I really shoot. I'm not going to fret one way or another, I'm doing this for the fun not a job.

I'm guessing that as things start shaking out there will only be one way to shoot these classifiers if you want to make expert which may be different depending on division. Heck I'm already planning in stacking bird, buck, and slugs in my 35 round XRail gun and shooting every open classifier with all shotgun. If you get paper as optional rifle or pistol why isn't it optional with slugs or buck too?

[Dan Sierpina]

Jesse, the option stages are the ultimate freestyle, "Here's the problem, Here's the tools, solve the problem" All stages shouldn't be that way, but, stage design and range space will more often dictate how it will be shot.

[KentG]

I am one of the shooters you describe. Pistol has always been and always will be my weak link. I think I have actually figured out a couple things in this off season and have improved my pistol somewhat after many years. Shooting open when I can take targets without reloading is an easy call. Even if I were still running TAC optic and loading a sx2 I would probably load shotgun to finish this stage vs pistol.. I suspect more than a few will go that route. Maybe.

If the guys making these stages wanted to level the playing field mandate which gun is used on targets. My score on this will be artificially high but I understand why. Another pistol heavy classifier will pull my score down closer to how well I really shoot. I'm not going to fret one way or another, I'm doing this for the fun not a job.

I'm guessing that as things start shaking out there will only be one way to shoot these classifiers if you want to make expert which may be different depending on division. Heck I'm already planning in stacking bird, buck, and slugs in my 35 round XRail gun and shooting every open classifier with all shotgun. If you get paper as optional rifle or pistol why isn't it optional with slugs or buck too?

I dont think Im in danger of making expert But you are correct. Like USPSA people will game it up to the very edge if the rulemakers let them.

[LT45]

We are going to have some new classifiers out in the next month or so...

The first release was to get the ball rolling.

The new ones... you can expect to see more movement and less standing and shooting from a box.

They will be testing skill sets that you would actually encounter at match.

Should have a higher fun factor too.

[ClutchUSMC]

Shot 2 this weekend at the G3G match. The rifle shoot 3 reload shoot 3 was a little boring but I thought the shotgun "flying by 12" stage was actually a fun little stage. And I shot it in 8.18 which by my math is about 70% of DH which is actually fairly accurate when compared to my better stages from major matches. Admittedly shotgun is my best gun, and I did shoot above the threshold of speed my skill currently dictates. It was all hero or zero, but I won the stage and was 20% ahead of 2nd place. Which is what these classifiers seem to be. The rifle one would have been the same way, whip it up and hope I didn't pull one off target, but I had a FTF so I can't really use it to make a judgment. I think a lot of guys will shoot them the same way and eventually someone will get lucky and burn in some untouchable runs with all the hits.

I wouldn't mind 1 in a match, or 2 if you replace'd 1 stage 2 for 1 with them. Make your normal 4 stage club match a 5 stage match with 2 3gn classifiers.

Edited May 6, 2013 by ClutchUSMC

[ClutchUSMC]

Some more interesting math, 70% of the match winners score at the Pro-Am last year would have had me finishing right between 2 shooters I shoot with regularly know quite well, and often finish very close to in matches. 1 who also shot the same G3G match and finished 1.1% ahead of me on the overall, we shot different divisions but TO/TI were almost identical as the long range area was too muddy to shoot in so it was all bay stages.

So from my very non scientific findings it would seem that 3GN classifiers have a direct correlation to where you will place in major matches. Something that USPSA classifiers are often criticized for, ie paper gms and sandbaggers.

After having tried it, I am still on the fence. I don't mind the classification system. I don't see the need for it. But, I shoot major matches every chance I get. If you couldn't make it to any and still wanted to know where you stand I can see the point. Also the classifications will have much more meaning. If they stay based upon just the top score. As fast as our sport progresses, techniques change, people just wanting to win, etc. The times will constantly be being pushed lower and lower. It will be 1000s times harder to earn the top title in 3GN than it is in USPSA/IDPA.

[DavidMarlow]

I don't see how a classification system can be effective in a shooting discipline like this, but I can see how classifier stages can assist in practicing fundamentals used in 3 gun matches. My club rarely hosts any sort of multi gun match, and driving hours away to large matches or other clubs to practice can be very expensive. Other than working one gun at a time or creating a little makeshift stage all by myself, shooting the whopping three local matches I have shot is my only multigun practice, so having these preformatted stages can be helpful in seeing if my skills are improving over time, as opposed to seeing how my skills stack up against ever-changing stages shot at different places, under different rules, and against different competitors.

[Stlhead]

If classifier scores below a certain threshold are ignored, classifiers can never represent a shooters actual ability. As soon as it becomes clear that classifiers are hero or zero, the scores that actually get used to advance the average are only the very best and even lucky skin of the teeth performances, not an average of the shooters actual skill set. Does 3gn use all scores or just the ones above a level?

[Sterling White]

Why? No really why?!!! Your killin me..... the idea of 3 gunner getting classified by a set of targets that are no further out than 50 yards

3gn should have a standards classifier with pistol targets out to 50 yards and rifle out to 400

[ziebart]

Stlhead,

There is the same issue in USPSA. If you shoot a classifier that is more than 15% below your current classification it does not count towards your avg. Also you generally can't move down a class.

My issue with the classifiers is there doesn't seem to be enough yet. Top it off many seem very similar. Mandatory mag changes are common in USPSA classifiers so I see how they got them, but few will change rifle mags standing still on a normal stage.