crotchThrower Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I just shoot and hope the gun is pointing where I am looking. I dry fire a lot, but I am just a b shooter Edited March 4, 2015 by crotchThrower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I have had GM skills in many areas of performance, for some time now, and M class in all, yet I continually sabotage my match performance by doing other than focusing on shooting only as fast as I can see. I'm not at your level(yet) but I was having similar problems a couple of years ago. I could hang with master class shooters when I was calm and shooting with buddies at a club match, but any time the score mattered(like a major match or on a classifier) I would lose focus and shoot very inconsistently. Lanny Bassham's book "With winning in mind" dramatically increased my consistency. It gives you all the tools you need to make sure that your mind is in the right place whether you're practicing by yourself or shooting your last stage at a big match. YMMV. Right on brother! I bought Lanny's book and also the audio version of it and have almost memorized it by listening to it so many times. It has helped me at least develop the understanding of the mental game, although executing on it has not yet occurred to the extent I desire. Just like you said. I have been immersed in this exact subject for the last weeks, coming off of recent match failures as a result of mental management errors. Yesterday, I shot a Steel Match at Rio Salado, with the sole intent of trying to PLAY with some of this stuff, in a match which I did not care at all about the outcome. (Note I have and am so eager to get wins now with my burgeoning new found shooting skills, that EVERY match is always TOO important to me!). Anyway I had mixed results in the steel match, because I was experimenting. The truly AMAZING thing that happened in the match was when I finally actually discovered and experienced what Brian Enos has always said, but I never got till yesterday. On stage 2, I won it by almost 9% (1.5 seconds faster) over the second place Limited guy. But that is not the point here. I actually and consciously found myself OBSERVING MY PERFORMANCE while shooting, as the shooting just "happened." I was so in the zone and flowing that I had no misses and no makeups on 20 steel targets shot quickly. (two plate racks, one at either extreme side, with a center array with 4 10 inch plates and 2 24 in square plates). I was astonished, not at my performance itself, but by the obvious, immediate realization that I had actually executed in the proper mindset. This "proves" that I have all the knowledge and skills at a high level now, and that when I can actually "get out of my own way" during a match performance, I can probably shoot 90% of the best shooters in the world. So my challenge, as you mentioned, is consistency. Being able to reproduce this type of performance, regularly, not just a stage winning hero or zero type garbage. My main performance destroyer is my mindset. Not my skills. So this is what I am going to work on most now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob D Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That's awesome. Congratulations! I get glimpses of that once in a while, but I'm usually not aware of what is happening until after the stage when I stop and think about where my attention was during the run. I started seeing the most benefit from Lanny's book when I started executing my mental process in dry-fire. If you teach condition your brain to go through those steps every time you shoot, whether it's dry fire, practice, or a big match, you will do the same thing when it matters. Dry fire burns in mental management the same way it burns in all those complex motor skills we practice so much. I think we spend so much time focusing our attention on what we see and feel(front sight, trigger prepped) that it's sometimes difficult to turn that focus inward and focus attention on what we're thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That's awesome. Congratulations! I get glimpses of that once in a while, but I'm usually not aware of what is happening until after the stage when I stop and think about where my attention was during the run. I started seeing the most benefit from Lanny's book when I started executing my mental process in dry-fire. If you teach condition your brain to go through those steps every time you shoot, whether it's dry fire, practice, or a big match, you will do the same thing when it matters. Dry fire burns in mental management the same way it burns in all those complex motor skills we practice so much. I think we spend so much time focusing our attention on what we see and feel(front sight, trigger prepped) that it's sometimes difficult to turn that focus inward and focus attention on what we're thinking. Thanks Rob D. I believe the reason I was aware of it while it was happening on Stage 2 yesterday, was because it was my whole motion for shooting this match. To put into practice the mental stuff. Interesting that dry fire can train the mental side as you said. Never thought of that aspect in this specific situation, but why not? Makes perfect sense. I have long known, the learned the hard way of course, that however we practice, we will do in match performances too. Especially that I used to practice always running in the red, pushing myself 100% of the time. And then the disbelief when on match day, I rush everything during each stage! It is a long journey and I am well on the way, but far from where I need to be to become consistent. Hoping I will at least be able to do this right (Shoot within my own skill level) for say, 1/3 of the stages in Area 2 in 2 days. Note, I KNOW it is unreasonable to expect a 100% change overnight on this. But from occasional glimpses comes eventual change and finally if I stay the course, consistency! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) so i know you know this but its not about 'not caring' to address this issue but about changing what you care about ... instead of caring about doing well, which leads to trying too hard you need to only care about executing the fundamentals of action shooting perfectly. When you do this the results take care of themselves. I've recently just figured out that this is going on with my rimfire Steel Challenge shooting. when I look back on my match results over the last 6 months there is an alarming trend of always having some major issue at each match. I shoot some stages right at my ability and then always tank 1 or 2. The timing of this coincides with when I started to realize that i was actually pretty good and started caring about my results at matches. Up to that point I would just go shoot them and not worry to mch about vresults because I 'knew" i wasn't that good. As that started to change so did my match results. While "not caring because I wasn't very good" I actually won 2 matches and finished 2nd 4 times ... the exact same thing is happening now that I've started to shoot open in Steel Challenge. Since I know I have a long way to go and I've only shot 4 matches I have no expectations at a match. The result, I'm shooting open rather well and my times continue to get better every match. So to combat this I started on Mon training without a timer except to give me a start signal to force myself to just focus on shooting and nothing else. The results after 2 days of doing this are stunning .. on Mon I went 60/60 with my open gun and with my rimfire gun I went 15/15, had 2 misses and then went 100/100. This morning I again went 60/60 with my open gun, had a run with 1 miss, then went 20/20. On the rimfire side my C-more needed adjusting but after zeroing it I again went 75/75. i'm looking forward to my last 2 matches before the Nationals to see it in action ... Edited March 4, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 so i know you know this but its not about 'not caring' to address this issue but about changing what you care about ... instead of caring about doing well, which leads to trying too hard you need to only care about executing the fundamentals of action shooting perfectly. When you do this the results take care of themselves. I've recently just figured out that this is going on with my rim fire Steel Challenge shooting. when I look back on my match results over the last 6 months there is an alarming trend of always having some major issue at each match. I shoot some stages right at my ability and then always tank 1 or 2. The timing of this coincides with when I started to realize that i was actually pretty good and started caring about my results at matches. Up to that point I would just go shoot them and not worry to much about results because I 'knew" i wasn't that good. As that started to change so did my match results. While "not caring because I wasn't very good" I actually won 2 matches and finished 2nd 4 times ... the exact same thing is happening now that I've started to shoot open in Steel Challenge. Since I know I have a long way to go and I've only shot 4 matches I have no expectations at a match. The result, I'm shooting open rather well and my times continue to get better every match. So to combat this I started on Mon training without a timer except to give me a start signal to force myself to just focus on shooting and nothing else. The results after 2 days of doing this are stunning .. on Mon I went 60/60 with my open gun and with my rim fire gun I went 15/15, had 2 misses and then went 100/100. This morning I again went 60/60 with my open gun, had a run with 1 miss, then went 20/20. On the rimfire side my C-more needed adjusting but after zeroing it I again went 75/75. i'm looking forward to my last 2 matches before the Nationals to see it in action ... Thanks Nimitz. That is good stuff. You seem to be making some significant progress. Amazing, our sport! Today I went out into the desert here, for my last training session before Area 2. Shot 600 rounds and I think I have gotten my stuff together! Shot all of my usual drills, mostly shooting on the move. I was mentally focusing on SEEING everything and it worked. I am going to spend all day tomorrow watching the staff shoot Area 2 and walking the stages myself, video recording them all to study and memorize. I shoot all three days, Friday, Sat and Sunday and all I really care about is SEEING everything all of the time. That is going to become my WHOLE focus. If I manage to execute on this, I will finish near 90% in the match. If not, then we will see. Regardless, it is not the outcome I am now finally focusing on, as you pointed out here. I am focusing on the process, shot by shot! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Here is a little 20 second video of my last practice session today, before Area 2 begins. Isn't this a beautiful setting to train in? Out in the desert near where I am staying, on public land. I have portable folding target stands and everything, just like at any range. Privacy and plenty of room. Like laying out three separate bays of drills all at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 looks like florida ..... except for the wide open spaces ... good luck at Area 2 .... one technique i do at matches is to not look at my score after a stage run. there is nothing you can do about it and it would just get me thinking about results so I don't do it. Its hard to ignore completely but i really try to deemphasis the results ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 looks like florida ..... except for the wide open spaces ... good luck at Area 2 .... one technique i do at matches is to not look at my score after a stage run. there is nothing you can do about it and it would just get me thinking about results so I don't do it. Its hard to ignore completely but i really try to deemphasis the results ... Yeah, I don't try to look at scores or standings or any results until each evening during a match. I have enough experience and analyze enough to KNOW where I am placing on any given stage after I complete it, just intuitively. Focusing only on shooting and callings A hits, one by one, seems to be the key to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 one technique i do at matches is to not look at my score after a stage run. there is nothing you can do about it and it would just get me thinking about results so I don't do it. Its hard to ignore completely but i really try to deemphasis the results ... That's reasonable, especially if you know you are likely to start getting outcome-oriented. I personally try to make a few mental notes about a stage while it's still entirely fresh in my mind, especially if there are particular things I did well (yay, my practice is working) or poorly (yay, now I know what to practice more). As you know if you've read any of my posts tho, I'm mostly interested in improving my own shooting, and not overly concerned about how others are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Atlanta Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I actually and consciously found myself OBSERVING MY PERFORMANCE while shooting, as the shooting just "happened." I was so in the zone and flowing that I had no misses and no makeups on 20 steel targets shot quickly. (two plate racks, one at either extreme side, with a center array with 4 10 inch plates and 2 24 in square plates). I was astonished, not at my performance itself, but by the obvious, immediate realization that I had actually executed in the proper mindset. Congrats! Keep in mind that it doesn't always feel like that (kind of an out of body experience, an epiphany). Sometimes it just "feels" like you were going slower, sometimes like a "normal" run.In any case, stick with your plan and good luck at Area 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I actually and consciously found myself OBSERVING MY PERFORMANCE while shooting, as the shooting just "happened." I was so in the zone and flowing that I had no misses and no makeups on 20 steel targets shot quickly. (two plate racks, one at either extreme side, with a center array with 4 10 inch plates and 2 24 in square plates). I was astonished, not at my performance itself, but by the obvious, immediate realization that I had actually executed in the proper mindset. Congrats! Keep in mind that it doesn't always feel like that (kind of an out of body experience, an epiphany). Sometimes it just "feels" like you were going slower, sometimes like a "normal" run.In any case, stick with your plan and good luck at Area 2. Yeah I agree. Heading out for the day now, to watch staff shoot and study the stages. Meeting Charlie Perez when he flies in at noon. Great weather! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) one technique i do at matches is to not look at my score after a stage run. there is nothing you can do about it and it would just get me thinking about results so I don't do it. Its hard to ignore completely but i really try to deemphasis the results ...That's reasonable, especially if you know you are likely to start getting outcome-oriented. I personally try to make a few mental notes about a stage while it's still entirely fresh in my mind, especially if there are particular things I did well (yay, my practice is working) or poorly (yay, now I know what to practice more). As you know if you've read any of my posts tho, I'm mostly interested in improving my own shooting, and not overly concerned about how others are doing.nothing wrong with that as you are focusing on technique kinds of things ... you get into trouble when your notes for a stage are: "I probably won that stage ...I need to keep burning it down like that ..." Edited March 5, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 It is a long journey and I am well on the way, but far from where I need to be to become consistent. Hoping I will at least be able to do this right (Shoot within my own skill level) for say, 1/3 of the stages in Area 2 in 2 days. Note, I KNOW it is unreasonable to expect a 100% change overnight on this. But from occasional glimpses comes eventual change and finally if I stay the course, consistency! Well, I did exactly what I had hoped in the Area 2 match. I shot a little over 1/3 of the stages well, when I did not push or rush myself beyond my ability. Shot one stage at 80% of winner Nils, and 4 others at 82% of Nils. Let's not discuss the other 9 stages! Onward................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gzo Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Vision speed seems to come with time as well. That ability to see the stage unfold instead of reacting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shws Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Just learning to see and understand the sight picutre has been huge for me. i no longer try and just get the shots off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robco Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Just learning to see and understand the sight picutre has been huge for me. i no longer try and just get the shots off It is amazing isn't it. We take seeing for granted, until we finally start intentionally looking intensely while shooting. I believe it takes a lot of conscious effort to figure this out, and practice making such intense seeing, a skill you will use under the stress of a match performance. The biggest jump I have experienced in my match performance level has come recently, as a direct result of simply shooting the whole match, one shot at a time, seeing everything I needed to see for each shot. As the great ones say, we make this shooting harder than it really is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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