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Is a SWAT sniper shot "real world"?


JD45
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Even though I like the sport of USPSA better, I shoot more IDPA matches because they are close by and I like to shoot with friends. I started in 2001, and I'm seeing things now that makes USPSA look more like a defensive sport than IDPA.

The worst case by far is the use of the no-shoot target. And being forced to engage a target half(or more) covered by one while moving!! At 10-12yds!! Doing this at 3yds. would still be risky in a defensive gunfight. How would you like to explain the former in court after you put a round through the non-threat while moving and shooting?

The way I see it, a hidden trained police sniper would think hard about taking some of the shots we make near a hostage, with a rifle. Don't you agree?

Plus these shots are a nightmare for a new shooter, especially after they watch Master class guys eat up the no-shoot.

I may add to this later, but designing stages that are too hard just to be cute does not help a sport that claims to be "real-world".

Edited by JD45
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When has USPSA ever advertised itself as "real world"? Hidden trained police sniper? Explain in a court that you put a round through a non-threat?

In my 15+ years of shooting USPSA I have always heard and I also explained the this was nothing more than a game and trying to use any of the situations we set up would probably get you killed on the street.

Your comparison is at best silly.

Regarding the use of no shoots making the sport too hard for beginners, there is no mandate that beginners have to shoot on the run. New shooters are told that they have to learn to walk before they can run. This advice is yes a saying but is also a real world truth in USPSA. I preach reasonable expectations for new shooters. By your explanation, we should never set up a stage that is too hard for a beginner. If we did that the best shooters would still win. Then what... hobble them?

Pat

Edited by Pat Miles
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United States Practical Shooting Association, somewhere just inside the USPSA rulebook it lists some principles of USPSA, if I am not mistaken. Ahhh...here it is:

...Courses of Fire should follow a practical rationale and simulate hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used....
. There's more to "practical" expressed there on that page, page i .

IDPA has gone "bubble gum IPSC" the past couple of years.

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If you cant hit a head shot at 10 yards, Id say the problem is your shooting not course design. Sorry to be harsh but it is what it is, You probably also need to work on shooting while moving. Speed of movement isnt specified.

The tactical Tim attitude at many IDPA venues is really what ruins the game. And yes it is a game. Not police training. I really could care less what real world is. Nothing about IDPA is real world. Its just a shooting game.

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Practical shooting, whether USPSA or IDPA or something else, builds confidence and competence with firearms. Whether or not you have to take a shot like that in the "real world" depends on the circumstances, and there may be a situation where it actually makes sense. If you ever happen to be in that situation, you'll be glad you can pull it off and not put a couple of rounds through the good guy.

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The worst case by far is the use of the no-shoot target. And being forced to engage a target half(or more) covered by one while moving!! At 10-12yds!! Doing this at 3yds. would still be risky in a defensive gunfight. How would you like to explain the former in court after you put a round through the non-threat while moving and shooting?

The way I see it, a hidden trained police sniper would think hard about taking some of the shots we make near a hostage, with a rifle. Don't you agree?

Shooting a half-covered target at 10 yards, while (barely) on the move, is hardly crazy. After all, most of the shooters get their hits and avoid the non-threat, right?

A police sniper would not be the least bit challenged by a motionless half-covered target at short range. The sniper's concern would be when to take his shot to ensure instant incapacitation with the least chance of setting off an ugly situation. In an IDPA scenario, you're assumed to be thrust into the middle of such an ugly situation already going down.

Plus these shots are a nightmare for a new shooter, especially after they watch Master class guys eat up the no-shoot.

I may add to this later, but designing stages that are too hard just to be cute does not help a sport that claims to be "real-world".

Some stages will always be too hard for the Marksmen or too easy for the Masters.

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seems like this target/stage was set up to challenge the OP (and it sounds like it did) and the rest of the shooters at the club. Some will make it look easy and others will struggle, its all about attitude! In reality you still have a large area to hit to either get a -0 or -1 even if the target is half covered. I remember last year at my club we had a 6 in steel plate set in front of a non-threat that we had to shoot at on the move at about 20 yards. Most shooters hit the NT but it was still a fun target because it really made you focus on the fundamentals.

i've shot both disciplines and neither is really "defensive". both are games played by different rules, one you run and gun, the other you wear a "cover garment" and utilize "cover".

INMO if your MD is not designing stages/elements within stages to push your comfort zone as a shooter he/she is not doing their job.

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Thursday night IDPA at a club I have not shot at for a few months... New shooter doing the peek-a-boo at ports and corners.....

Some do look at it as "real world" practice..... :)

That's fine by me that some think of it as practice, rock on I tell 'em.

I'm at a match to post better hits in a better time than anyone else there.

I don't need tactical timmy to tell me I wouldn't do that in real life. I especially get a kick when tac timmy weighs about 350 and can't tie his own shoes, is lecturing me on "real life", when I put on body armor and carried a rifle everyday for a year overseas. I might know a little about "real life" gun fights.

I typically just respond with a kind word and that I'd never thought of it like that, secretly hoping they'll see my veteran plates on my car as I leave.

It's a game, there's rules, time kept and score tallied, I'm there to win, period.

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Both sports, USPSA and IDPA teach gun handling under time pressure. You learn to move, reload, shoot on the move, clear malfunctions, and think on the move. You don't learn tactics. This is a game, we keep score on paper (Ok, electronically) and the targets don't shoot back. We all go home at night. It is about the most fun you can have with a gun, well 3-gun is more fun, but you get the idea.

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Let's face it...

Matches teach/reinorce techniques; not tactics.

both good and bad techniques :(

As Jim said, it's an ideal crucible to learn and reinforce high speed, accurate, safe gunhandling under the pressure of a timer.

What bad techniques do they teach?

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As someone finally mentioned, I was not talking about USPSA. And I am the complete opposite of a Tactical Timmey.

If you read the rule book, or suggestion book, or whatever you want to call it, it is full of ideas on how the sport should always be based on something that could happen in "real life". I didn't write it, but it is there if you read it. From the beginning, IDPA clearly stated how their sport differed from other pistol shooting sports.

Of course a match isn't a tactical shooting school lesson. But IDPA stated what it is about, I just don't think some matches currently reflect the ideas presented in their own book.

They tell people their holster is illegal because it shows daylight near the belt, but somehow slipping shots past no-shoots to hit a 4-inch wide area is somehow totally cool for the sport. I just believe if they call it defensive shooting, that is what it should be, not a hostage crisis shootout.

Edited by JD45
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Let's face it...

Matches teach/reinorce techniques; not tactics.

both good and bad techniques :(

As Jim said, it's an ideal crucible to learn and reinforce high speed, accurate, safe gunhandling under the pressure of a timer.

What bad techniques do they teach?

not necessarily teach but our sports can reinforce bad techniques in new shooters bring to the match with them. Some are more or less receptive to coaching to correct these bad habits. Last season i had to break out the first aid kit in three of the 8 matches we had to take care of slide bite.... same guy 2 of the 3 matches too.

Of course a match isn't a tactical shooting school lesson. But IDPA stated what it is about, I just don't think some matches currently reflect the ideas presented in their own book.

They tell people their holster is illegal because it shows daylight near the belt, but somehow slipping shots past no-shoots to hit a 4-inch wide area is somehow totally cool for the sport. I just believe if they call it defensive shooting, that is what it should be, not a hostage crisis shootout.

the rule book leaves a lot to the imagination as to what stage designers can and cannot do. If you feel the stages do not reflect the spirit of the sport, perhaps you could step up and submit a few stage designs a month for your club or volunteer to help the MD.

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JD45, speaking from personal experience, the answer to your question

"The way I see it, a hidden trained police sniper would think hard about taking some of the shots we make near a hostage, with a rifle. Don't you agree?"

Is..

Yes without a doubt! IDPA is a game, more-so when it comes to scenarios. In real life, targets are moving and unpredictable.

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Both USPSA and IDPA provide the opportunity to work on gun handling skills. What you do with that opportunity is up to you. Being able to make tough shots imparts confidence in the shooter, possibly leaving one less thing to worry about should there ever be a real life self defense situation.

They are both games and scores are kept to show who had the better day. What you get out of participation is determined by why you are participating. If by participating you become better in your gun handling skills, then you have gained something useful beyond the shooting sports.

Edited by Blueridge
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You usually would not find a "Police SWAT Sniper" within 10/12 yards of a potential target since snipers usually use rifles at a much greater range than that !!

Since it is a game, and some are better than others, seems like a reasonable set up to me.

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I like to see real world stages. But having never been in a real world gunfight I'm not sure I would know. Stages taken from real events are usually low round count. Once, at my local club, the stage designer set a string of fire within a stage where the correct response was to not shoot! I don't know if this is within the rules of IDPA but it was an eye opener.

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I fear getting too "real world". If it was "real world" most stages would be at around 4 feet and be 3 or 5 shots. That's boring and the sport would quickly die; nobody wants that. A good dose of fun or even silly stages is good for the sport. It keeps people coming back and gives us great stories to tell.

Edited by jason237m
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