Grip Strength and Recoil Control

[SimpleSwede]

Thanks for all the input. I ended up doing 2 warmup sets with thr Trainer. 3 working sets with the 1 and then 30 seconds of grip and hold also with 1. Finally 50 reps with the expand bands.

[Ssanders224]

I need to order some COC grippers. It sounds like you guys get in some good workouts with them. I tried a buddies set a few nights ago, and the 1.5 felt like a good weight. I could close the 2.5 a few times in a row, but the knurling on the handle just about chewed my fingers up, ha.

He doesnt have a #3, but I think I'm going to order one just to try.

So is the consciences that high reps are better for our sport? Or heavier, and lower reps/holds/negatives?

[ChuckB]

My very limited work out experience leads me to believe that high reps build strength while heavier weights build mass. I don't want to look like Popeye so I go for the higher reps. After injuring my elbow though I do a set of reps that provide a good work out verses working until I can no longer close the gripper.

Edited April 6, 2013 by ChuckB

[meshugunner]

The hands respond well to high rep training which is also less injury prone. High reps do tend to build mass and IMO this is desireable for shooting skills since it increases the muscle's ability to stabilize shock. Gripping a handgun is basicaly an isometric exercise, so I do clamp and hold exercises. The basic gripper exercise, squeeze and release develops a crushing or squeezing grip, the sort of action used to work a pair wire cutters. None of these effects can be completely isolated and any of these forms of exercise will improve all around hand strength. It's a matter of what you want to emphasize.

The knurling will toughen your skin soon enough but if it bothers you, you can wrap the handles with sports tape or even give them a light rub down with 320 grit paper to knock off the sharp points.

And what's wrong with looking like Popeye - so long as you have all your teeth?

Edited April 6, 2013 by meshugunner

[RaylanGivens]

I am 64 and have had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands so I have a bit of experience in hand strengthening and rebuilding. I use the weakest COC available -- and it is sufficient for me.

wrist curls and reverse wrist curls with full lower arm isolation are part of my training, as well as a good tricep workout. You must build the whole arm from the fingers up to the shoulder.

How much weight are you using for the wrist curls?

What do you mean by "full lower arm isolation?"

5-7 pounds for curls and reverse curls. Isolation means resting your arm on your leg so only the wrist muscles flex.

One thing that works for me (I have had full blown arthritis in both wrists for nearly 20 years): I hot shower in the evening prior to working out. Body is warm and flexibile. better workouts.

Thanks for the information...

I started with a set of 10 reps with 5 pounds for both curls in each hand... I can feel it a bit in my forearms... First time I've done any sort of wrist exercises... Not sure if it is because of the new wrist reps or the CoC grippers...

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

My very limited work out experience leads me to believe that high reps build strength while heavier weights build mass.

Traditionally, strength athletes -- weightlifters, powerlifters, etc. -- use extremely low reps -- singles up to, say, five reps per set -- while bodybuilders use higher reps, with less rest between sets, in order to "feel the burn" and "get pumped," and research supports these two strategies.

I don't want to look like Popeye so I go for the higher reps. After injuring my elbow though I do a set of reps that provide a good work out verses working until I can no longer close the gripper.

I've found that going heavy and going to failure are two very, very different things. I've been able to recover from injuries, for instance, by working up to fairly heavy weights, but always stopping with another rep or two "in the tank" -- and then reinjured myself by switching to lower weight and higher reps.

The hands respond well to high rep training which is also less injury prone. High reps do tend to build mass and IMO this is desireable for shooting skills since it increases the muscle's ability to stabilize shock. Gripping a handgun is basicaly an isometric exercise, so I do clamp and hold exercises.

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

And what's wrong with looking like Popeye - so long as you have all your teeth?

I think keeping both eyes is an even bigger priority.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Not-So-Mad Matt

[dravz]

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

I would actually say it is a habit you should be maintaining in dry-fire.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

I would actually say it is a habit you should be maintaining in dry-fire.

Agreed. You should maintain a strong grip during dry-fire, but it can be hard to make yourself do that when there's no recoil.

[toothguy]

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

I would actually say it is a habit you should be maintaining in dry-fire.

Agreed. You should maintain a strong grip during dry-fire, but it can be hard to make yourself do that when there's no recoil.

The body is constantly trying to find balance. It does this through involuntary systems that work off of sensory feedback. When you shoot a gun the feed back from the gun becomes part of that system. You can let the feed back control the grip subconsciously or you can override this by making a conscious effort. The conscious effort usually takes an understanding of what's happening, maybe not.

Mad Matt, I think that says a lot. When you dry-fire or train with a .22, the bodies proprioception systems that maintain balance automatically will self adjust unconsciously to the reduced need for grip force. It is also connected to CHA-LEE's observations about the grip force of both hands subconsciously reverting to a 50/50 balanced neutral grip.

It seems simple but it easy to get dishonest with yourself in dry-fire and really lighten up subconsciously, then in actual conditions all this tension occurs, when our conscious control of the grip force is not neutral.

Edited April 10, 2013 by toothguy

[DonovanM]

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

I would actually say it is a habit you should be maintaining in dry-fire.

Agreed. You should maintain a strong grip during dry-fire, but it can be hard to make yourself do that when there's no recoil.

Absolutely. I had that problem for a while. I would just get lazy with my other strong hand and not squeeze very hard. Translated perfectly, straight across, into doing it in live fire and experiencing trigger freeze and poor recoil control.

[loneranger04]

I've noticed some talk about elbow pain and I work where I have to use a large air wrench to tighten bolts and was having elbow pain after running it for 20 or 30 minutes. What seems to have helped me is doing some upper body exercises. I'm getting older and have back pain so I can't do pushups on the flat so I do them at an angle. Kind of like push aways instead of pushups. I started using the kitchen counter then went to an old piano bench. I can do two sets now of 50 total and most of my neck and upper body pain has went away. Also it doesn't hurt when I run the air wrench anymore. What I've found is strengthening the supporting muscles helps keep the joint pain at bay. Need to figure out a way to do that with my hip now.

For grip strength (I'm cheap) I use some of that cheap blue foam padding for sleeping bags that you buy from Wally World and cut a piece and roll it up with a smaller piece in the middle so that the middle is thicker than the edges. I can't tell you how much resistance it gives however it has greatly improved my grip strength. I can tell when I over do it because my muscle in the middle of my hand starts aching for a couple of days and I have to back off. It's best for me if I just do it every other day for 3 sets.

[t1nm4n]

Not sure if this was discussed, but if you look closely his arms are not locked completely either, he is absorbing so much of the recoil in his elbows, noticeable on the first stage, don't get me wrong, theres no noticeable bend in his arms, but he doesn't have them locked, something I've seen other shooters do before. Just an observation.

[DonovanM]

Not sure if this was discussed, but if you look closely his arms are not locked completely either, he is absorbing so much of the recoil in his elbows, noticeable on the first stage, don't get me wrong, theres no noticeable bend in his arms, but he doesn't have them locked, something I've seen other shooters do before. Just an observation.

Very true. Matt Mink is the only top shooter I have seen who comes close to locking his elbows. It doesn't seem to be a very common technique.

[CHA-LEE]

Not sure if this was discussed, but if you look closely his arms are not locked completely either, he is absorbing so much of the recoil in his elbows, noticeable on the first stage, don't get me wrong, theres no noticeable bend in his arms, but he doesn't have them locked, something I've seen other shooters do before. Just an observation.

You don't want excessively bent elbows or locked elbows. Your should straighten your elbows just enough to keep the recoil impulse from allowing your arms to compress at the elbows. While shooting your arms should not compress and rebound at the elbows. If this does happen, it makes the whole gun displace during recoil which makes shooting fast consistently a lot more difficult.

[Nimitz]

I start every training session with group shooting -- something Steve anderson taught me:

string 1: 5 shots freestyle at the head A zone from 13 yds

string 2: 5 shots strong hand at the center A zone from 10 yds

string 3: 5 shots weak hand at the center A zone from 7 yds

Once you can do 1", 2" & 3" groups respectively increase the distance ...

Do this as a warm up for EVERY training session you do and I promise you you'll be a better shooter ...

[kneelingatlas]

I start every training session with group shooting -- something Steve anderson taught me:

string 1: 5 shots freestyle at the head A zone from 13 yds

string 2: 5 shots strong hand at the center A zone from 10 yds

string 3: 5 shots weak hand at the center A zone from 7 yds

Once you can do 1", 2" & 3" groups respectively increase the distance ...

Do this as a warm up for EVERY training session you do and I promise you you'll be a better shooter ...

That sounds like I good program, I'm going to try it. Thanks

[kita]

Exactly. Maintaining a solid grip is a perfect example of an isometric exercise. (It's also a habit that can be hard to maintain if you overdo the dry-fire, I've found.)

I would actually say it is a habit you should be maintaining in dry-fire.

Agreed. You should maintain a strong grip during dry-fire, but it can be hard to make yourself do that when there's no recoil.

The body is constantly trying to find balance. It does this through involuntary systems that work off of sensory feedback. When you shoot a gun the feed back from the gun becomes part of that system. You can let the feed back control the grip subconsciously or you can override this by making a conscious effort. The conscious effort usually takes an understanding of what's happening, maybe not.

Mad Matt, I think that says a lot. When you dry-fire or train with a .22, the bodies proprioception systems that maintain balance automatically will self adjust unconsciously to the reduced need for grip force. It is also connected to CHA-LEE's observations about the grip force of both hands subconsciously reverting to a 50/50 balanced neutral grip.

It seems simple but it easy to get dishonest with yourself in dry-fire and really lighten up subconsciously, then in actual conditions all this tension occurs, when our conscious control of the grip force is not neutral.

Force has both a magnitude and a direction, making it a vector quantity. During dry fire, what is the direction as opposed to live fire?

[toothguy]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

[DonovanM]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

You've gotta have a direction!

Theoretically it would be great if the limit of the summation - well, the integral - of the infinite, two dimensional and cylindrically symmetric force vectors from one's hands acting upon the grip of the firearm would converge to zero, that is they tend towards being equal and opposite in every radial direction. But human physiology will not allow that, and since most of the grip force from my other strong hand is coming from the fingertips and the lower palm in opposing directions squeezing into the medial axis of the firearm, the practice doesn't follow from the theory, so all I can hope for is a rough approximation.

You are right in that it should absolutely be constant in both dry and live fire... I have had trouble with slacking off and getting lazy with my grip too.

That probably made me sound really smart to someone who hasn't studied science. Don't worry, it made me sound really dumb to someone who actually does.

Edited April 16, 2013 by DonovanM

[kita]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

How can the magnitude of the force be constant if the gun exerts increased force on your grip when fired (the kick), thus leading your grip to increase the returned equal and opposite force? Also, when the shot is fired, would the direction of the vector not change? I read somewhere that pro-shooters push forward immediately after the shot breaks to help eliminate movement of the gun when it kicks.

[kneelingatlas]

If the pro shooter is pushing forward to counter the recoil, wouldn't a surprise light strike result in a lurch forward? I'm certainly not a pro shooter, but I've always visualized my upper body like a ransom rest when the shot breaks, providing the maximum resistance to movement, but not countering it.

[Jerome]

I've read that this is the case with some "better shooters". If the gun does not go off, the shooter will automatically push forward and down on the gun looking like a flinch. I've heard it applied to "better shooters" but no names in particular.

If the pro shooter is pushing forward to counter the recoil, wouldn't a surprise light strike result in a lurch forward?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jerome

[toothguy]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

How can the magnitude of the force be constant if the gun exerts increased force on your grip when fired (the kick), thus leading your grip to increase the returned equal and opposite force? Also, when the shot is fired, would the direction of the vector not change? I read somewhere that pro-shooters push forward immediately after the shot breaks to help eliminate movement of the gun when it kicks.

Should a shooter increase grip force on close fast shots and lighten up the grip on more difficult shots? Would it be better to keep the same constant neutral grip force no matter what the shot? Should you dry fire with the same neutral grip force as in live fire? Would pushing forward immediately after the shot breaks and not following through induce flinching problems? I guess you need to experiment and see what works best for you.

[toothguy]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

You've gotta have a direction!

Theoretically it would be great if the limit of the summation - well, the integral - of the infinite, two dimensional and cylindrically symmetric force vectors from one's hands acting upon the grip of the firearm would converge to zero, that is they tend towards being equal and opposite in every radial direction. But human physiology will not allow that, and since most of the grip force from my other strong hand is coming from the fingertips and the lower palm in opposing directions squeezing into the medial axis of the firearm, the practice doesn't follow from the theory, so all I can hope for is a rough approximation.

You are right in that it should absolutely be constant in both dry and live fire... I have had trouble with slacking off and getting lazy with my grip too.

That probably made me sound really smart to someone who hasn't studied science. Don't worry, it made me sound really dumb to someone who actually does.

It's an isometric. The force is countered by equal and opposite force.

[kita]

The magnitude of the force should be constant and the direction neutral, in live and dry fire.

You've gotta have a direction!

Theoretically it would be great if the limit of the summation - well, the integral - of the infinite, two dimensional and cylindrically symmetric force vectors from one's hands acting upon the grip of the firearm would converge to zero, that is they tend towards being equal and opposite in every radial direction. But human physiology will not allow that, and since most of the grip force from my other strong hand is coming from the fingertips and the lower palm in opposing directions squeezing into the medial axis of the firearm, the practice doesn't follow from the theory, so all I can hope for is a rough approximation.

You are right in that it should absolutely be constant in both dry and live fire... I have had trouble with slacking off and getting lazy with my grip too.

That probably made me sound really smart to someone who hasn't studied science. Don't worry, it made me sound really dumb to someone who actually does.

It's an isometric. The force is countered by equal and opposite force.

What about the force of the recoil?