Grip Strength and Recoil Control

[Psynapse]

Ironically I'm just finishing breakfast and going through the new posts while using my COC grip strength trainers. I have the T and the 1.

The T is a nice warm up as I can close that indefinitely it seems. The 1 I can close a bunch of times with my strong hand but I'm still struggling with my weak hand.

As mentioned before it's easy to plateau so I'm trying to mix it up. I did hurt my weak hand once and it took for ever to heal up so keep that in mind and go easy.

On a side note... ya... the handles are really rough on the hands... and I have girlishly soft hands... so I left them bare and as a result it seems to have toughened up my hands a bit.

either way... my 2 cents

[Bunsen]

Thanks for a great post. I have worked on my grip but never on the extensor musles and am looking foward to trying it out.

[BHill]

Thanks for a great post and links. Money going down range. Now to stay disciplined and not over do it!

Thanks again

[DonovanM]

Glad you guys are liking it. Reformulating your grip technique is definitely a challenge, it takes a bit of conscious steering into the correct form to have it set in, but if you stick with it you'll start doing it once the buzzer goes off. I am going through the same thing now. I have gotten lazy in dry fire, and slacked off the pressure with my other strong (left) hand. Trying to clamp it down now especially on the harder targets. Still a work in progress, if you watch my shooting vids my recoil control is noticeably better at times due to inconsistent grip pressure.

Also, LOL.

Thanks, Donovan! You rock!

This. Great post.

Wow, that was truly well played

[lugnut]

I didn't think my grip was so bad but I can't close the 2s at all and even the 1.0 and 1.5 are tough. I trained a while ago with the CoC and stopped because I seem to have tendonitis in my left elbow.... not sure how that happened.

To Donovan's point- yeah it's a bitch to stay "focused" on grip when you are pushing for faster draws, while in dry dire. You can have great grip strength but don't let it go to waste by not training WITH it.

[DonovanM]

So in my sophomore Biology class, we are studying motor neurons and muscle activation at the cellular level and all that. I had the odd coincidence today of being able to test my maximum grip strength using a dynamometer, and even graph the electrical potential of the muscles firing through my skin by electrodes connected to an Electromyograph (EMG).

This reminds me a bit too much of those television shows where they try to induce hypothermia in Navy SEALs and stuff like that, so I can't resist sharing the data. I am not a top shooter by any means but I think I've trained enough to be a pretty good example of a practical shooting competitor.

Hopefully someone gets a kick out of this. I am not a doctor or a sports physiologist of some kind so I can't tell you what this all means - not that it means all that much anyway, it's just an indulgence in geekery really. Note how the electrical potential goes up, but the force exerted goes down as time progresses. Also, I am happy with how symmetrical my hand strength is.To me, there is a noticeable difference in hand strength and I thought it would have been much more than 3.5%.

FWIW, 570N is about 130lbs. I am taking this to mean I can crush a person who weighs 130lbs with my bare hands if the need arises.

Edited February 28, 2013 by DonovanM

[nick romero]

Thanks for this post Donovan. It's really informative and is helping me learn how to improve my grip and recoil.

[CHA-LEE]

Donovan> That is pretty cool data. I have a cheap grip dynamometer ($25 Ebay Special) that I used to track and test my grip strength. One important thing that I found is that testing a full 4 finger grip with a straight wrist on each hand produces a lot more grip pressure than testing with your hands/wrists in a normal pistol grip angle. Normally your dominant hand is usually a little stronger with a straight wrist and a full four finger grip. But if you emulate a normal pistol grip scenario on each hand you will be surprised at how close the peak grip pressures are on both hands, usually within 3 - 5 lbs for the higher classification shooters. Give your test a try again with a normal pistol grip and wrist angle. On the strong hand grip ONLY with 3 fingers, leaving your trigger finger out of the equation, then point forward like you are shooting strong hand only then test the grip strength. On your weak hand grip with four fingers but cant your wrist forward at the same angle as you would grip the gun with a normal thumbs forward two handed grip, point forward like you would be in a normal two handed grip then test the grip strength.

I have tests about 50 different shooters (U - GM) using this test and my cheap grip dynamometer and was kind of surprised at the results. Most A, M, and GM shooters have a grip pressure at or above 120lbs at these "Normal Shooting" grip pressure tests. But more importantly the higher the classification the closer the peak grip pressure was between both hands. All of the A, M, and GM shooters I tested had grip pressures within 3 - 5 lbs on each hand. The interesting thing is that when I would ask these shooters what percentage of grip pressure they thought they were using during a normal grip was all over the place. Some said 70/30, others 60/40, or even 80/20. But in reality the actual grip pressure in pounds on the gun for each hand was almost exactly 50/50 every time. So even if you "Think" you are putting an uneven amount of trip pressure on the gun its probably ending up in a 50/50 ratio from a pounds of grip pressure perspective.

Since using the CoC gripper exercises I have been able to improve my "Normal Shooting" grip pressure on both hands to 170lbs. Other than myself in the 50 shooters I have tested the maximum "Normal Shooting" grip pressure I have seen is 150lbs and that was a top end GM that normally shoots Limited division. Not too surprising the top end Open GM's that I have tested normally have a lower "Normal Shooting" grip pressure verses the Limited shooters, which makes sense because the Open shooters don't have to grip the gun as hard as a Limited shooter to effectively manage the recoil.

To reiterate what I have already said in prior posts, I feel that the stronger my "Normal Shooting" grip pressure gets the less I actually have to feel like I have to grip the gun hard. Even though I don't feel like I am gripping the gun hard I am still be able to produce significant grip pressure on the gun to manage the recoil. From my grip pressure testing results I would say that may "Normal Firm Grip" exceeds the average shooters "Death Grip" pressure.

Edited February 27, 2013 by CHA-LEE

[toothguy]

But in reality the actual grip pressure in pounds on the gun for each hand was almost exactly 50/50 every time. So even if you "Think" you are putting an uneven amount of trip pressure on the gun its probably ending up in a 50/50 ratio from a pounds of grip pressure perspective.

From what Brian says about needing a neutral grip, I wonder if the shooters start with a grip percentage in the conscious mind, and as the gun recoils they default to a neutral subconscious grip, to keep the desired sight picture and balanced feel.

Would it be better to start with the idea of applying equal pressure with both hands? The limit being trigger finger mobility.

Edited February 27, 2013 by toothguy

[CHA-LEE]

But in reality the actual grip pressure in pounds on the gun for each hand was almost exactly 50/50 every time. So even if you "Think" you are putting an uneven amount of trip pressure on the gun its probably ending up in a 50/50 ratio from a pounds of grip pressure perspective.

From what Brian says about needing a neutral grip, I wonder if the shooters start with a grip percentage in the conscious mind, and as the gun recoils they default to a neutral subconscious grip, to keep the desired sight picture and balanced feel.

I think you are on to something there. We can all consciously command an action but once we slip into a subconscious mode of shooting your body/mind simply takes over and does whatever it needs to do in order to produce the results its looking to achieve.

[CHA-LEE]

The other thing to consider is that I am talking about pounds of pressure. To produce the same pounds of grip pressure with both hands, it may "Feel" like you are gripping the gun with an uneven grip pressure or effort of grip pressure. The main thing to think about here is that you really have a 3 finger strong hand verses a 4 finger weak hand grip while gripping the gun. Removing the trigger finger from the strong hand grip pressure essentially brings the overall grip pressure in pounds down to the level of the not as strong weak hand. In most shooters, even with only a 3 finger strong hand grip they are usually gripping the gun with a higher level of pounds of grip pressure, to make the grip pressure even you feel like you HAVE TO grip the gun harder with your weak hand. When in the end the "I think I am gripping the gun harder with my weak hand" verses the 3 finger grip with the strong hand actually results in the same pounds of gripping force on the gun on each hand.

[CHA-LEE]

This is a battle of what pressure you "Think" you are gripping the gun with on each hand, verses the actual pounds of gripping force each hand is able to produce. You may "Think" that you are gripping the gun more or less with a specific hand, but the end result in pounds of gripping force is usually almost identical. At least with the A, M, and GM level shooters.

[toothguy]

It seems like an isometric. With my open revolver it's easier to see because of the dot, but when I just let it feel like I am applying equal firmness with both hands, the dot smooths out. More force with the weak hand, like most shooters say, and the dot quivers.

Your second or third shot on something like a plate rack often times feels better than the first. I wonder if it is because of this starting imbalance and the bodies correction to it.

Edited February 27, 2013 by toothguy

[DonovanM]

Great posts CHA-LEE, thanks for chipping in. I definitely see where you're coming from with regard to the mental idea of how much you're gripping. I'll have to take a look at next time I'm dry firing.

Just finished my first workout with the grippers in a couple months. Took a break because my left elbow was bothering me - it still does, but didn't today. I've gone from 6 reps on the #2 in my right hand to almost 2, and 2 in my left hand to 1. Sigh.

Oh well, I'm back! I didn't even lose any skin.

I'm also thinking of taking up the KTA grip program on a push for closing the #3. I'm gonna need to take an angle grinder to my #1.5 to do overcrushes. Wee!

Edited February 28, 2013 by DonovanM

[JulieTheCat]

Tennis elbow question:

I started getting serious about my dry fire about a month ago. My grip strength is not incredible, but I lift weights regularly and do some light grip training.

Dry firing for about 40 minutes 3x a week has now produced some tennis elbow in my support (left) arm.

Has anyone else dealt with this? Did you have to take a break from practicing until it healed?

thanks

[GuildSF4]

I'm also thinking of taking up the KTA grip program on a push for closing the #3. I'm gonna need to take an angle grinder to my #1.5 to do overcrushes. Wee!

Not sure what the KTA grip program is, do you have a reference?

Overcrushes meaning you taper the inside bottom edge on the grips? How far up?

Tennis elbow question:

I started getting serious about my dry fire about a month ago. My grip strength is not incredible, but I lift weights regularly and do some light grip training.

Dry firing for about 40 minutes 3x a week has now produced some tennis elbow in my support (left) arm.

Has anyone else dealt with this? Did you have to take a break from practicing until it healed?

thanks

Check out this post - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164727&hl=+tennis%20+elbow#entry1858372

[toothguy]

Tennis elbow question:

I started getting serious about my dry fire about a month ago. My grip strength is not incredible, but I lift weights regularly and do some light grip training.

Dry firing for about 40 minutes 3x a week has now produced some tennis elbow in my support (left) arm.

Has anyone else dealt with this? Did you have to take a break from practicing until it healed?

thanks

Don't push it, listen to your body. Make sure you are working the extensor as well as the flexor muscles. You can use rubber bands to open your fingers and thumb outward or try a bag of rice in a bucket. Place your hands in the bucket and work in and out against the resistance of the rice. Start slow and warm up, just do 3-4 sets twice a week. Use anti inflamatories and ice as needed.

The Gyro resistance ball that I mentioned in a previous post, works well also.

Edited February 28, 2013 by toothguy

[mwc]

Great thread everyone! You never stop learning around here!

I have been focusing a lot on dry fire lately and my left elbow started hurting and getting quite sore, so I have been using rubber band exercises and anti inflamatories. Today, after about 20 minutes of dry firing, my thumb on my left hand went numb. It has lessened a bit but is still numb two hours later! Has this ever happen to you guys?

[DonovanM]

I'm also thinking of taking up the KTA grip program on a push for closing the #3. I'm gonna need to take an angle grinder to my #1.5 to do overcrushes. Wee!

Not sure what the KTA grip program is, do you have a reference?

Overcrushes meaning you taper the inside bottom edge on the grips? How far up?

http://www.cyberpump.com/ktaprogram/

I have only taken a cursory look at the packet so far, but I assume taking off 1/4" or so of material where the bottom of the grippers meet would work.

Tennis elbow question:

I started getting serious about my dry fire about a month ago. My grip strength is not incredible, but I lift weights regularly and do some light grip training.

Dry firing for about 40 minutes 3x a week has now produced some tennis elbow in my support (left) arm.

Has anyone else dealt with this? Did you have to take a break from practicing until it healed?

thanks

I would definitely slow down a bit and take a good break from the activities that are aggravating your elbow. I don't really like to mess with this stuff so I have practiced very little over the past few weeks.

[GuildSF4]

Great thread everyone! You never stop learning around here!

I have been focusing a lot on dry fire lately and my left elbow started hurting and getting quite sore, so I have been using rubber band exercises and anti inflamatories. Today, after about 20 minutes of dry firing, my thumb on my left hand went numb. It has lessened a bit but is still numb two hours later! Has this ever happen to you guys?

It has happened to my wife, carpel tunnel. She uses a wrist brace to relieve the stress on her wrist (her's is from how she sleeps...) (May be a different cause for you, however you may want it checked out.)

[toothguy]

Great thread everyone! You never stop learning around here!

I have been focusing a lot on dry fire lately and my left elbow started hurting and getting quite sore, so I have been using rubber band exercises and anti inflamatories. Today, after about 20 minutes of dry firing, my thumb on my left hand went numb. It has lessened a bit but is still numb two hours later! Has this ever happen to you guys?

It's probably a slight case of Neuropathy or Carpal Tunnel caused by compression of the median nerve. Let it calm down and do a different exercise like the rice or the gyro ball.

Edited February 28, 2013 by toothguy

[mwc]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It has been over twenty-six hours now and it hasn't improved much. I guess I will hold off on buying the COC's.

I kinda figured that I was over doing it. I just bought Ben Stoegers new book and was dry firing a couple hours a day for the last couple weeks. It's fun to get excited about a hobby, but I hate hurting myself in the process.

[GOTURBACK]

I purchased the Coc grippers the T and #1, and used them infrequently for about a month, I also increased my dry fire routine. Now I too am experiencing pain and an inability to completely flex the elbow on my strong hand. I have been diagnosed with considerable arthritis and possible tendonitis in the elbow as well so now I am seeing a PT for help.

Edited March 3, 2013 by GOTURBACK

[DonovanM]

Geez, so many people in here are posting with injuries you'd think dry firing and grip strength training was a pretty dangerous and risky affair.

It certainly shouldn't be!

[Tim James]

Geez, so many people in here are posting with injuries you'd think dry firing and grip strength training was a pretty dangerous and risky affair.

It certainly shouldn't be!

Yeah I noticed that. I rarely dry fire, so I figure if I take it easy on the grippers I'll be fine.