Can you be competitive with a glock?

[motosapiens]

I think if you honestly answer those questions you will come to terms with the fact that the S_I has far more potential than the Glock. Obviously it's up to the shooter to win the match, but if you want every possible advantage then you will probably not settle on a Glock.

Well, that certainly explains kc's terrible results all year.

I personally do not care for the feel of glocks, but it's pretty obvious they can be competitive.

[BulletWhisperer]

How many rounds can you fit in an IPSC-legal Glock mag compared to an S_I mag?

How accurate is a Glock compared to an S_I?

How good can a Glock trigger be compared to the trigger of an S_I?

What is the reliability of the individual guns you are comparing?

I think if you honestly answer those questions you will come to terms with the fact that the S_I has far more potential than the Glock.

Seriously, I couldnt agree with you more ...

That is why I shoot my Glocks . When I win , its just a lot more bragging rights !!!

Winning with a gun that is:

-cheaper

-less accurate

-crappy trigger

-less capacity

-lighter (snappier recoil)

............ having said that , if I dont win , then thats all my excuses ;-) ;-)

[beltjones]

I think if you honestly answer those questions you will come to terms with the fact that the S_I has far more potential than the Glock. Obviously it's up to the shooter to win the match, but if you want every possible advantage then you will probably not settle on a Glock.

Well, that certainly explains kc's terrible results all year.

I personally do not care for the feel of glocks, but it's pretty obvious they can be competitive.

I did not say you can't win and can't place with a Glock. I think I was pretty clear that the shooter is the key factor. However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

Also, ever hear the phrase "the exception that proves the rule?" KC is the only top shooter who uses a Glock, and to be blunt about it, they pay him to do so.

As to the question at hand, how many top Standard competitors at the last world shoot used a Glock?

Edited January 29, 2013 by beltjones

[hvsmith]

It's always a treat watching Flexmoney shoot his little G26 & stomp almost everyone!

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I agree with the others who have stated that YES you can be competitive with a glock.

However I believe that is only to a point.

This sport, like any other that is equipment intensive has what I would describe as a logarithmic curve of effort vs improvement.

What I mean by that is when you start out you reap great improvements from training early on, however as you reach, and begin to compete against the higher skill sets fundemantal skills are mastered by all and the margins of winning and loosing get much closer together. At this point in the game things like a better trigger CAN make the difference between winning and losing. Think of it this way, if you compete in cycling, a $1000 bike will be fine for winning local races. You get to the Tour de France and everyone is riding $8000 bikes.

Those who point to elite competitors winning with glocks, they are just dammed good and would win with a clapped out walther p-38 if they wanted to!

I think at the mid level where the vast majority of us live it just boils down to what you like and can afford. Glock vs. 2011 arguements are nothing more than Chevy vs. Ford arguements to me.

[Tuflehundon]

I agree with the others who have stated that YES you can be competitive with a glock.

However I believe that is only to a point.

This sport, like any other that is equipment intensive has what I would describe as a logarithmic curve of effort vs improvement.

What I mean by that is when you start out you reap great improvements from training early on, however as you reach, and begin to compete against the higher skill sets fundemantal skills are mastered by all and the margins of winning and loosing get much closer together. At this point in the game things like a better trigger CAN make the difference between winning and losing. Think of it this way, if you compete in cycling, a $1000 bike will be fine for winning local races. You get to the Tour de France and everyone is riding $8000 bikes.

Those who point to elite competitors winning with glocks, they are just dammed good and would win with a clapped out walther p-38 if they wanted to!

I think at the mid level where the vast majority of us live it just boils down to what you like and can afford. Glock vs. 2011 arguements are nothing more than Chevy vs. Ford arguements to me.

That right there puts it in perfect perspective for you.

[motosapiens]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

Also, ever hear the phrase "the exception that proves the rule?" KC is the only top shooter who uses a Glock, and to be blunt about it, they pay him to do so.

As to the question at hand, how many top Standard competitors at the last world shoot used a Glock?

Robert Vogel was 2nd at limited nationals this year with a glock.

It doesn't bother me if you insist on being wrong, however.

[mwc]

I think the first thing you need to do to be competitive with a glock is to BELIEVE that you can be. Once that happens then its all downhill from there. Shoot the platform you have confidence in...it doesn't matter what others do.

From Robert Vogels website regarding why he shoots a glock:

"Since the beginning of 2006 I have shot Glock pistols exclusively in competition. Prior to this I had shot 1911 style pistols (STI) for three solid years. My number one reason for preferring the Glock is the grip I am able to get on the pistol. Because of the grip angle, ergonomics and low bore axis of the pistol I can get a much higher and more secure grip with both hands. This in effect translates into a shooting platform that is more effective in controlling recoil.

For me the trigger on a Glock is actually a plus. With the double action type trigger it allows for more of a “surprise break” type shot. This has allowed me to shoot more aggressively and has made trigger freeze less of an issue. I will admit that before switching to Glocks I had to set aside a number of preconceived notions that I had about them. This was easily done by concentrating on the only thing that really mattered to me: The results."

Edited January 30, 2013 by mwc

[JimmyZip]

I think the first thing you need to do to be competitive with a glock is to BELIEVE that you can be. Once that happens then its all downhill there. Shoot the platform you have confidence in...it doesn't matter what others do.

From Robert Vogels website regarding why he shoots a glock:

"Since the beginning of 2006 I have shot Glock pistols exclusively in competition. Prior to this I had shot 1911 style pistols (STI) for three solid years. My number one reason for preferring the Glock is the grip I am able to get on the pistol. Because of the grip angle, ergonomics and low bore axis of the pistol I can get a much higher and more secure grip with both hands. This in effect translates into a shooting platform that is more effective in controlling recoil.

For me the trigger on a Glock is actually a plus. With the double action type trigger it allows for more of a “surprise break” type shot. This has allowed me to shoot more aggressively and has made trigger freeze less of an issue. I will admit that before switching to Glocks I had to set aside a number of preconceived notions that I had about them. This was easily done by concentrating on the only thing that really mattered to me: The results."

I cannot agree more. This is how I feel about this platform.

[msp1jpp]

I have had STI, SVI, etc, etc, and I am currently in a Glock phase. I just decked out a 24 and will drive it this year..

The Glock tends to grow on you and you learn to love its ugliness -- Kinda like and AK 47 -- till you spend sometime with one you do not learn to appreciate its simplistic beauty..

[beltjones]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

Also, ever hear the phrase "the exception that proves the rule?" KC is the only top shooter who uses a Glock, and to be blunt about it, they pay him to do so.

As to the question at hand, how many top Standard competitors at the last world shoot used a Glock?

Robert Vogel was 2nd at limited nationals this year with a glock.

It doesn't bother me if you insist on being wrong, however.

So out of the Limited super squad, who can all have any gun they so desire, one person shoots a Glock. Again, the exception that proves the rule.

And again, to the question at hand, how many people at the WS chose to shoot a Glock in Standard division?

And again, this isn't to say that one cannot be competitive with a Glock, as like I've said the shooter is the most important variable in the equation. However, if you are honest about things, you will come to the agreement that S_Is have numerous advantages over Glocks.

[motosapiens]

However, if you are honest about things, you will come to the agreement that S_Is have numerous advantages over Glocks.

I can agree that *you* think the 2011 platform has advantages. Perhaps that's what you're used to and you are comforted by using what is popular. Obviously there are some shooters who disagree with you and are far more experienced and have better results. Forgive me if I give mr Vogel more credibility than you.

As far as I can tell, it is only in the last few years that we are really seeing gunsmiths and aftermarket companies supporting limited/open glock builds. Previously, 2011 was the only available choice for many people, so of course they stayed with the flock.

Edited January 30, 2013 by motosapiens

[Flexmoney]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

I don't think so.

Are reloads effectively slower?

Do they transition between targets worse?

Slow splits?

Draw speed?

Reliability?

Accuracy?

My perspective is that they are a lighter gun with a trigger that isn't quite as nice. Other than that...which I put on the shooter...they perform.

[beltjones]

However, if you are honest about things, you will come to the agreement that S_Is have numerous advantages over Glocks.

I can agree that *you* think the 2011 platform has advantages. Perhaps that's what you're used to and you are comforted by using what is popular. Obviously there are some shooters who disagree with you and are far more experienced and have better results. Forgive me if I give mr Vogel more credibility than you.

As far as I can tell, it is only in the last few years that we are really seeing gunsmiths and aftermarket companies supporting limited/open glock builds. Previously, 2011 was the only available choice for many people, so of course they stayed with the flock.

That's a fair point about me possibly being more used to 2011's than Glocks. However, you have me all wrong.

What isn't fair is comparing my success to Bob's. First, I never referenced myself in any of this. I certainly didn't compare myself to Vogel. I've seen Bob Vogel shoot at Nationals, and it was impressive to such a degree that I thought to myself, "You know, when people say, 'Vogel uses X so it must be good' they are missing the point that he's practically super man, so it's an invalid argument."

Second, I have competed in 4 Nationals over 2 years (not a lot), but I used a Glock 34 and a Glock 35. I started with a Glock, and only recently made the switch to something else. In fact, I'm not "comforted" by using anything BUT a Glock. The CZ and SVI I recently switched to feel anything but comforting. I write all of this only because you seem to think it's relevant to reference my equipment choices and match performance. I tend to think the general statistics are more valid, and I think my own preferences are irrelevant. As to your last comment about "some shooters who disagree and have more experience and better results," that's true. But there are way more shooters who agree with me and have more experience and better results.

Again, Glocks in the hands of a Vogel can be competitive. However, if we examine the individual attributes of the guns (trigger, mechanical accuracy, magazine capacity, etc) and review the statistics of who actually uses Glocks in Standard division (which was the point of this thread), or even expand to Limited and Open, we see that very, very few people at the top tend to choose Glock. Those are the facts, insult me if it makes you feel better.

[beltjones]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

I don't think so.

Are reloads effectively slower?

Do they transition between targets worse?

Slow splits?

Draw speed?

Reliability?

Accuracy?

My perspective is that they are a lighter gun with a trigger that isn't quite as nice. Other than that...which I put on the shooter...they perform.

I'm not saying they don't perform, and I agree that the shooter is the major variable. I've said that about a dozen times here (hyperbole).

To address your questions, here's my perspective:

Are reloads effectively slower? Shooter.

Do they transition between targets worse? Shooter.

Slow splits? Shooter.

Draw speed? Shooter.

Reliability? Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that doesn't run and an S_I that doesn't fail.

Accuracy? Ah. Here it is. S_Is tend to be more accurate (but you pay for it), and they have better triggers.

[JaeOne3345]

....but how much of it is actually an issue of the 2011 (as an example) being better than the Glock vs. People buying what everyone else has cause it is the norm?

Serious question. I own and shoot both btw (Glock and STI).

[G34 CORDY]

....but how much of it is actually an issue of the 2011 (as an example) being better than the Glock vs. People buying what everyone else has cause it is the norm?

Serious question. I own and shoot both btw (Glock and STI).

Iam not going to comment on which is better but I can agree a lot of people shoot S_I because its the norm and a lot of people use them so some people feel the need to fit in. They are great guns and I have owned a STI and it wasn't for me still own Glocks and what I like to shoot is CZ. I do get looked down at and asked why do I shoot CZ when there is 2011's to be had. I simply tell them this is what (I) like and enjoy to shoot. Some people can become gun snobs and not realize there are other platforms out there that people like to use other than brand X. I personally think the advantage is what gun you like an able to use best.

[Flexmoney]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

I don't think so.

Are reloads effectively slower?

Do they transition between targets worse?

Slow splits?

Draw speed?

Reliability?

Accuracy?

My perspective is that they are a lighter gun with a trigger that isn't quite as nice. Other than that...which I put on the shooter...they perform.

I'm not saying they don't perform, and I agree that the shooter is the major variable. I've said that about a dozen times here (hyperbole).

To address your questions, here's my perspective:

Are reloads effectively slower? Shooter.

Do they transition between targets worse? Shooter.

Slow splits? Shooter.

Draw speed? Shooter.

Reliability? Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that doesn't run and an S_I that doesn't fail.

Accuracy? Ah. Here it is. S_Is tend to be more accurate (but you pay for it), and they have better triggers.

You don't get the reliability point. You just don't. Sure, people can,...and do...mess up their Glocks. But, if you truly want to make the argument you made...then I could say the same thing about triggers. It would be BS, but I could say...Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that has a great trigger and an S_I that has a bad trigger.

Accuracy...back when I was shooting decent, I'd take people's lunch money (literally) all the time with my Glock. My favorite bet was the "Alpha-bet", where we'd bet dinner on who would shoot the most Alphas in a match. I seldom didn't win. (often shooting against Open guns based on 1911s).

Easy money.

[beltjones]

However, it's also pretty clear that Glocks are at a disadvantage relative to other guns under a pretty important range of criteria.

I don't think so.

Are reloads effectively slower?

Do they transition between targets worse?

Slow splits?

Draw speed?

Reliability?

Accuracy?

My perspective is that they are a lighter gun with a trigger that isn't quite as nice. Other than that...which I put on the shooter...they perform.

I'm not saying they don't perform, and I agree that the shooter is the major variable. I've said that about a dozen times here (hyperbole).

To address your questions, here's my perspective:

Are reloads effectively slower? Shooter.

Do they transition between targets worse? Shooter.

Slow splits? Shooter.

Draw speed? Shooter.

Reliability? Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that doesn't run and an S_I that doesn't fail.

Accuracy? Ah. Here it is. S_Is tend to be more accurate (but you pay for it), and they have better triggers.

You don't get the reliability point. You just don't. Sure, people can,...and do...mess up their Glocks. But, if you truly want to make the argument you made...then I could say the same thing about triggers. It would be BS, but I could say...Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that has a great trigger and an S_I that has a bad trigger.

Accuracy...back when I was shooting decent, I'd take people's lunch money (literally) all the time with my Glock. My favorite bet was the "Alpha-bet", where we'd bet dinner on who would shoot the most Alphas in a match. I seldom didn't win. (often shooting against Open guns based on 1911s).

Easy money.

Uhh, I think I do get it.

The reliability potential for both is 100%. You can't have a gun that's more reliable than that. Either is capable of that, so it's really an issue of individual gun performance.

However, when we're talking accuracy and trigger, you have to admit that - mechanically - the S_I has more potential. It has more accuracy potential, and it has potential for a better trigger. Certainly the trigger is a matter of personal preference, but for most people a tuned 1911 trigger will be preferable to a tuned Glock trigger. As for accuracy, I would put the most accurate 1911/S_I up against the most accurate Glock any day. In a rest that is. If I put the Glock in the hands of a good GM and the S_I in the hands of a B class shooter of course I would expect the GM to shoot more alphas. That's a matter of shooter skill, not mechanical accuracy.

Once again, in case anyone missed it, the most important variable is the shooter (sort of like in the alpha bet above). That much is obvious. But among the best shooters, not many tend to choose a Glock over an S_I. Take that for what it's worth.

And since Sevigny left team Glock, in how many matches in Standard or Limited did he shoot a Glock? Obviously he had a tremendous amount of experience shooting Glocks, right? Yet he jumped to a custom STI almost immediately. It's just a data point, but it's worth about as much as the data point on Vogel posted above.

[motosapiens]

Again, Glocks in the hands of a Vogel can be competitive. However, if we examine the individual attributes of the guns (trigger, mechanical accuracy, magazine capacity, etc) and review the statistics of who actually uses Glocks in Standard division (which was the point of this thread), or even expand to Limited and Open, we see that very, very few people at the top tend to choose Glock. Those are the facts, insult me if it makes you feel better.

1. trigger seems like a matter of preference, not fact.
   
2. mechanical accuracy seems irrelevant, since both guns are more than accurate enough for action pistol, far more accurate than almost any shooter.
   
3. magazine capacity, it does appear from a cursory search that the 2011 platform *may* have a 1 or 2 round advantage. How often is that a significant advantage. How much does eric grauffel suffer from the lower capacity of the tanfoglio?
   
4. popularity, who cares? by that reasoning, the jonas brothers are good musicians and the cowboys are a good football team.
   

I personally don't care for glocks, but I bet you a 6 pack of IPA that the numbers of glocks and similar guns in limited and open is only going to increase over the next few years. As one can see by reading this thread, people are more comfortable following. Now that we have some examples of top shooters using glocks, other people will be less fearful.

I'm sorry you feel insulted if people point out the faults in your reasoning. I don't mean to insult at all, just point out that you are wrong.

[G34 CORDY]

This kind of goes for what some people are talking about?

Edited January 31, 2013 by G34 CORDY

[dmedley]

I have shot both S-I and glock platforms and finished in the same place overall in matches. I am an leo and and I think that switching back and forth between platforms was not a good thing at least not for me. That being said I now shoot a glock for competion with the only difference between my duty guns and comp guns being more skid tape on comp guns. My comp gun is actually a gen 2 g22 former detroit pd trade in gun and is probably an antique. I am as competitive with it as I would be anything else. The comment was made at my last local match that I was shooting a "fifty dollar gun" maybe so, but it works for me. It is funny , but I have found that my performance at matches is much more related to how much time I am putting into dryfire parctice than anything else. Bottom line is shoot what you like and practice with it alot.

[Tom C]

Here's what it comes down to plane and simply. With a Glock trigger, no matter what you do to it, it has the same trigger pull time after time. That pull can be 5.5#, It can be 2# but it will be what it is first squeeze, last squeeze. The Double action single action guns have a "heavy" pull for the first shot then the following shots are single action and the pull weight is less. David Sevigny used to shoot Glocks and did well. Robert Vogel (from Ohio) won the IPSC worlds in Greece using a Glock 17 and still competes with Glocks. Once you work out the "bugs" of any firearm, It's the shooter and only the shooter that matters. That is the bottom line no if's and's or but's about it.

The pull weight of the Double/single action semi-autos are why they dominate standard in IPSC. They have a 2.2 kg rule for the first pull. Few want to fight a 2.2kg pull shot for shot.

[beltjones]

Here's what it comes down to plane and simply. With a Glock trigger, no matter what you do to it, it has the same trigger pull time after time. That pull can be 5.5#, It can be 2# but it will be what it is first squeeze, last squeeze. The Double action single action guns have a "heavy" pull for the first shot then the following shots are single action and the pull weight is less. David Sevigny used to shoot Glocks and did well. Robert Vogel (from Ohio) won the IPSC worlds in Greece using a Glock 17 and still competes with Glocks. Once you work out the "bugs" of any firearm, It's the shooter and only the shooter that matters. That is the bottom line no if's and's or but's about it.

The pull weight of the Double/single action semi-autos are why they dominate standard in IPSC. They have a 2.2 kg rule for the first pull. Few want to fight a 2.2kg pull shot for shot.

You're confusing Standard with Production.

[Nik Habicht]

Reliability? Depends on the individual gun - you can certainly have a Glock that doesn't run and an S_I that doesn't fail.

A Glock that doesn't run? Possible. An S_I that doesn't fail? Based on my decade plus experience, that's a mythical gun -- does not exist in the real world, where my Production and Limited guns will run for 5,000 rounds between cleanings.....

Accuracy? Ah. Here it is. S_Is tend to be more accurate (but you pay for it), and they have better triggers.

Maybe -- but I've owned 2 Glocks with fitted Bar-Sto tubes, and I'd put them up against Bianchi guns.....