Two guns blown up in five weeks...suggestions?

[deerassassin22]

I have loaded TG last year for 9mm and 40 & 45 and never had any issues roughly about 30lbs of powder total. I don't think your solution personally would be changing the powder you need to change how you load. When I was teaching my dad to load on a 550 he would pull the handle all the way down with the case in the powder station then lift it halfway up to check and push the handle back down. The problem here depending how far down you go it can reset the powder bar when you look into the cases and when you bring it back up will drop another charge. And if you don't recheck you get problems. So I suggest a few tips.

1. Never load distracted.

2. Load in a well light environment I use my Man Cave with my regular ceiling fan and can see in each case just fine no fancy add on light required.

3. I have a strong mount and load standing never sitting down. This allows me to see inside each case at both the powder station and bullet seating with no issues

4. Don't drink and load.

5. Don't load distracted.

6. After you leave the machine sit always cycle the first few powder drops before starting loading again I usually do 5 then check the weight and then load them up.

7. Check your OAL

8. Watch how much crimp the bullets as well.

Edited April 25, 2013 by deerassassin22

[GeneBray]

Made a post the other night and don't see it. ????? :-(

At any rate, there are a few other posts here to review as well. The jist of what I thought I posted was to check the crimp. You may need more. If there is any set back of the bullet in the feeding process and using Clays, a kaboom may well follow. Clays seems very sensitive to case volume. Check that first.

Disagree with comments on using auto indexing press. I have both. Never an issue with either.

Comments on process are good. The process you use during reloading must be 1) followed 100% of the time, and 2) be fool proof with regard to preventing and/or detecting double charges or squibs.

[open3gunner]

That's one of the reasons I don't use titegroup, what I usually use is a powder that when you double charge it fills up the case and a lot easier to notice

[cjd1215]

Luckily I am one of the OCD folks. I have an auto index but I still check every case after powder load. I guess I might as well be loading on a single stage press and hand charging the case. I just can't bring myself to not check every load. Glad no one was hurt. Sometimes reloading scares the heck out of me. I am getting an 9mm open and I am nervous about reloading for it. I think my OCD is a plus here.

[whitetail1]

I run a lot of range brass thru my press. One thing i have found is that periodically i will find a little piece of dirt or debri in the case that failed to come out when tumbling. It will appear to be a slight overcharge when looking at it prior to pushing the projectile into the case. It doesn't take much of a chunk of crap below the powder to make the CUP rise dramatically.

Check each case before loading and when dropping in the bullet.

It saved me more than once.

Best of luck

Andy

[spencerhut]

Auto-indexing press, and use the RCBS Lock-out die. It detects double-charge or empty case automatically and stops the press. I don't load without it.

I have a drawer full of RCBS Lockout dies. Used them for a while, they will lock the press solid, for no reason, with annoying regularity. Yes I tinkerd and tinkerd with them never once got a real double or no charge indication unless I set it up myself to test. Squibs or doubles so far in over 180k reloads . . . . zero.

Almost all the double charges I have heard of were on manual rotating machines like the 550.

You either need to get a Firm routine going while loading and not deviate from it, or have someone else reload for you. Believe me, I understand distractions. When I am loading and get pulled away from the machines, I dump the powder from the stations and start up again, whatever machine I am running as a precaution.

I concur with the statement on 550's, also goes for the RCBS Pro2000 w/o the auto index kit. Auto indexing takes a manual step out, manual steps mean one more chance for error.

My loading is done with no TV or radio, facing a wall in corner. I also clear the machine if I need to stop for some reason, takes less than 30 seconds on the 1050 and about the same on the Pro2000.

[spencerhut]

I have loaded TG last year for 9mm and 40 & 45 and never had any issues roughly about 30lbs of powder total. I don't think your solution personally would be changing the powder you need to change how you load. When I was teaching my dad to load on a 550 he would pull the handle all the way down with the case in the powder station then lift it halfway up to check and push the handle back down. The problem here depending how far down you go it can reset the powder bar when you look into the cases and when you bring it back up will drop another charge. And if you don't recheck you get problems. So I suggest a few tips.

1. Never load distracted.

2. Load in a well light environment I use my Man Cave with my regular ceiling fan and can see in each case just fine no fancy add on light required.

3. I have a strong mount and load standing never sitting down. This allows me to see inside each case at both the powder station and bullet seating with no issues

4. Don't drink and load.

5. Don't load distracted.

6. After you leave the machine sit always cycle the first few powder drops before starting loading again I usually do 5 then check the weight and then load them up.

7. Check your OAL

8. Watch how much crimp the bullets as well.

i agree with the steps you list, just make sure the fan part of the ceiling fan is off. Had a buddy loading with the fan on and could not figure out why he was having powder drop issues. :-) Should have seen his face when pointed out what moving air does to electronic scales.

I've swapped out the powder measure on my 1050 for a RCBS Quick Change. I find the RCBS to be much more reliable and repeatable than the Dillon charge bar thingy.

Edited May 8, 2013 by spencerhut

[Cy Soto]

I have loaded TG last year for 9mm and 40 & 45 and never had any issues roughly about 30lbs of powder total.

30lbs of powder in one year for pistol calibers...

[98sr20ve]

This is counter intuative but I seldom check powder weights. TO ME stopping the process is asking for trouble. Far more important to keep your routine and look in every case.

Even more important to me is the order you load on a 550. Seat the bullet as the ram is going down in station 2. You look in the case as the shellplate is going down, seat the bullet at the bottom, index and raise the ram. You simply can not double charge in that process.

Edited May 8, 2013 by 98sr20ve

[willfully armed]

Powder check die is irreplaceable in my mind.

Also, 3.1gr TG won't make power factor. Just saying...

[Gussers]

The others pretty much covered it, but I have a stop like yours. I went back to unique for just this reason. I didn't have an issue, but the small changes you use with Titegroup leave plenty of room for a double charge. With unique, it will fill the case of even overflow.

I focus on the left side of the press while loading. I can feel the primers seating and can Chevy the seat and crimp of the finished product after loading, so no need to watch those steps. After a few hundred rounds, you should know how much powder looks "normal" in the case. Check each one after the drop, just before placing a bullet for seating.

Titegroup, clays, and a few of the others mentioned are extremely fast powders. The pressure spikes rapidly and so isn't tolerant of variation. Slower powders will have a lot more forgiveness if you're off by even a few tenths of a grain unless you're loading right at max loads.

Finally, I've noticed I get more variation with Titegroup and powders like it due to the small charge weight. I've since installed the extra small charge bar and now that variation is virtually gone.

Whatever you do, he'd what others have said... Check your powder charge visually and don't keep interrupting your rhythm to measure on the scale. Measure the first few when you start and dump them, then just motor through until finished and check visually.

Good luck.

[bajadudes]

Adhering to a rigid process goes a long way toward eliminating errors. We run 3 1050's pretty much 4-6 hours a day, 3-4 days per week and here are the 12 golden strict rules we adhere to.

One: not only an individual adjustable bright light clamped to the machine and pointed down on the left hand side AND turned on but a bright room and free uncluttered area around each machine. Clean up powder spills around the machine and on the tool head WHEN THEY HAPPEN not later.

Two: No distractions, no head phones, no music, no texting at the station, no cell phone use at all at the station. if you need to make a call, STOP and walk away, more on that below.

Three: On a machine with auto drive, if the machine is stopped for any reason, upon start up verify visually that the next few cases coming off the powder drop are being filled properly. On a machine with auto drive constantly listen and know the sounds of your machine, constantly scan and be familiar with all the moving parts. If you are operating the machine manually your eyes need to always be on the powder and bullet drop sations, no where else unless you are stopped.

Four: If you need to stop the machine for any reason you must always stop it with the tool head in the full down position unless clearing a jam prevents it. Get into this habit all the time so there is no guessing which way to go with the tool head upon startup.

Five: NEVER let the powder bin get less than 1/2 full, even with a low powder alarm on the bin.

Six: Very important, SLOW DOWN and be very deliberate in all your interactions with the process. Do not race the machines.

Seven: Do not leave the machine with an empty or low primer magazine. If it is empty OR low and you need to walk away for any reason, make sure the tool head is in the full down position, pull out the the primer feed rod and lay it across the tool head and flip up the alarm acuating lever so you know at a glance that the machine should not be started up until the primer magazine is checked and full.

Eight: The machine is always tagged with a securely attached note indicating the bullet type, powder type, charge weight, OAL and date it was set up.

Nine: The powder bin has a seperate note in big letters indicating the current powder type in the bin.

Ten, Do not load powder and primers on the fly with an auto drive unit. STOP the machine with the tool head down, load what you need to and then start back up as indicated above.

Eleven: No lot is to be greater than 1000 - 1300 rounds. When you reach that amount stop, tag the bin with a note that stays with that lot for the rest off the process through cleaning, polishing, guaging boxing and labeling. The note must have on it machine#, year, month, day, projectile weight and type, powder type and charge weight. NO BINS LAYING AROUND WITH PRODUCT IN THEM AND NO TAG!

Twelve: NO open or unlabeled containers of powder anywhere near the machine unless you are in the process of loading the powder bin. The jug is always kept sealed and placed under the table. No container is to have more than 5-8 Lbs of powder in it at any one time.

The other comon sense things are, take the bathroom break and don't stand there twitching your leg up and down while you "just get these last 50 rounds done". Don't work when hungry. Safety glasses ALL THE TIME, no excuses.

One job, one focus, if your mind is drifting off to other thoughts STOP and take a break.

Clean the machines regularly by taking off the tool head, indexing plate, case and primer shuttle cocks, inspecting and reassembling. If we keep the tool head clean and free of powder spills as they happen we only need to do this about once a week to each machine.

While the above rules are particular to us and the 1050's they can be adapted to your personal situation. I encourage you to print out something similar poster style and place it close to the machine. Read it often, don't get complacent. Any activity involving energetic compositions demands your full attention and respect. It's not IF an accident will happen but WHEN it happens....... be prepared.

Edited November 24, 2013 by bajadudes

[mickd1]

with the 550 you have loads of time to see if you have the right amount of powder in each shell, i have a small light above and its easy to see if you have a double charge.. take your time

[BlackBuzzard]

Adhering to a rigid process goes a long way toward eliminating errors. We run 3 1050's pretty much 4-6 hours a day, 3-4 days per week and here are the 12 golden strict rules we adhere to.

One: not only an individual adjustable bright light clamped to the machine and pointed down on the left hand side AND turned on but a bright room and free uncluttered area around each machine. Clean up powder spills around the machine and on the tool head WHEN THEY HAPPEN not later.

Two: No distractions, no head phones, no music, no texting at the station, no cell phone use at all at the station. if you need to make a call, STOP and walk away, more on that below.

Three: On a machine with auto drive, if the machine is stopped for any reason, upon start up verify visually that the next few cases coming off the powder drop are being filled properly. On a machine with auto drive constantly listen and know the sounds of your machine, constantly scan and be familiar with all the moving parts. If you are operating the machine manually your eyes need to always be on the powder and bullet drop sations, no where else unless you are stopped.

Four: If you need to stop the machine for any reason you must always stop it with the tool head in the full down position unless clearing a jam prevents it. Get into this habit all the time so there is no guessing which way to go with the tool head upon startup.

Five: NEVER let the powder bin get less than 1/2 full, even with a low powder alarm on the bin.

Six: Very important, SLOW DOWN and be very deliberate in all your interactions with the process. Do not race the machines.

Seven: Do not leave the machine with an empty or low primer magazine. If it is empty OR low and you need to walk away for any reason, make sure the tool head is in the full down position, pull out the the primer feed rod and lay it across the tool head and flip up the alarm acuating lever so you know at a glance that the machine should not be started up until the primer magazine is checked and full.

Eight: The machine is always tagged with a securely attached note indicating the bullet type, powder type, charge weight, OAL and date it was set up.

Nine: The powder bin has a seperate note in big letters indicating the current powder type in the bin.

Ten, Do not load powder and primers on the fly with an auto drive unit. STOP the machine with the tool head down, load what you need to and then start back up as indicated above.

Eleven: No lot is to be greater than 1000 - 1300 rounds. When you reach that amount stop, tag the bin with a note that stays with that lot for the rest off the process through cleaning, polishing, guaging boxing and labeling. The note must have on it machine#, year, month, day, projectile weight and type, powder type and charge weight. NO BINS LAYING AROUND WITH PRODUCT IN THEM AND NO TAG!

Twelve: NO open or unlabeled containers of powder anywhere near the machine unless you are in the process of loading the powder bin. The jug is always kept sealed and placed under the table. No container is to have more than 5-8 Lbs of powder in it at any one time.

The other comon sense things are, take the bathroom break and don't stand there twitching your leg up and down while you "just get these last 50 rounds done". Don't work when hungry. Safety glasses ALL THE TIME, no excuses.

One job, one focus, if your mind is drifting off to other thoughts STOP and take a break.

Clean the machines regularly by taking off the tool head, indexing plate, case and primer shuttle cocks, inspecting and reassembling. If we keep the tool head clean and free of powder spills as they happen we only need to do this about once a week to each machine.

While the above rules are particular to us and the 1050's they can be adapted to your personal situation. I encourage you to print out something similar poster style and place it close to the machine. Read it often, don't get complacent. Any activity involving energetic compositions demands your full attention and respect. It's not IF an accident will happen but WHEN it happens....... be prepared.

I like this work/safety procedure.

A lot of thought and experience has obviously gone into it.

Even Dillon couldn't do a better one......if their lawyers even let them try.

BB

[rowdyb]

since a couple people asked or commented, 3.1 of TG definitely makes power factor as I've shot it over a chrono myself 20 times and had my ammo chronographed at sanctioned matches and passed.

[Gandof]

After this happening twice I think I would consider gettting an auto indexing press

This! Plus, LOOK in every case before placing the bullet in the case mouth. I use Clays because I have a lot of it, but 3.6 gns fills the case about 2/3 full. Hard to miss a double charge.

[Buildit2]

So what are the possible reasons for a KB that exclude human error with the powder charge? It seems we are all quick to say reloaders fault if it's reloaded ammo. I'm not a metallurgist so what signs of wear or stress are there in guns chamber or barrel? How important is the brass to the containment of the shot? Does the chamber fully support the brass or is the brass more important than that. What is the possibility of a bullet that is slightly over sized getting over crimped or causing too much back pressure exiting the barrel?

I never hear any of these items discussed but always hear the Human error side because most of the evidence for anything else disappears whit the KB. I also notice that most cases where firearms blow using factory ammo are not discussed much online and seem to disappear fast. I'd love to hear from a real gun expert on what other issues aside from powder overcharges can result on an explosion of the gun.

[Rokihsa]

since a couple people asked or commented, 3.1 of TG definitely makes power factor as I've shot it over a chrono myself 20 times and had my ammo chronographed at sanctioned matches and passed.

I agree...3.1 of TG behind a 147 Bayou chromos at 132. How is that not making power factor?

[Sarge]

So what are the possible reasons for a KB that exclude human error with the powder charge? It seems we are all quick to say reloaders fault if it's reloaded ammo. I'm not a metallurgist so what signs of wear or stress are there in guns chamber or barrel? How important is the brass to the containment of the shot? Does the chamber fully support the brass or is the brass more important than that. What is the possibility of a bullet that is slightly over sized getting over crimped or causing too much back pressure exiting the barrel?

I never hear any of these items discussed but always hear the Human error side because most of the evidence for anything else disappears whit the KB. I also notice that most cases where firearms blow using factory ammo are not discussed much online and seem to disappear fast. I'd love to hear from a real gun expert on what other issues aside from powder overcharges can result on an explosion of the gun.

Don't know what a real gun expert is. But guns tend to not blow up if a quality piece of ammo designed for that chambering are fired from it. Yes, I am sure the occasional gun does fail from a gun related issue such as cracks or poor QC but it is rare. I think guns don't blow up, they GET blown up, by ammo that has a problem whether it be factory or home made. In general the culprit is an over charge or double charge by a reloader that made a booboo. Or a reloader using the wrong powder. 4.2 grains of powder ABC can be twice as potent as 4.2 grains of XYZ. This is why I am so anal about having two powders anywhere near the bench when reloading. I don't know if factory ammo issues are downplayed or not. And if they are I have no idea how or why.

Aside from an over charge, the next big thing that I see causing kabooms is bullet setback. If a bullet ends up being pushed into a case very far the room for the explosion is drastically reduced and pressure skyrockets. Most reloaders never check for setback and I have proven to a few folks on here that it is worth checking. Some who swear they have never had the issue have done a quick test and found that their bullets will push into a case by hand quite easily. That is the only reason I use a Udie. My rounds have always chambered fine even with my dillon sizer die but only the Udie will give me the neck tension I need to hold MG bullets tight in FC brass.

I wish everybody reading this would take a minute and grab a handful of their reloads and push one at a time against their bench. Measure before and after. If they shrink you need to look at fixing that somehow.

[Buildit2]

Aside from an over charge, the next big thing that I see causing kabooms is bullet setback. If a bullet ends up being pushed into a case very far the room for the explosion is drastically reduced and pressure skyrockets. Most reloaders never check for setback and I have proven to a few folks on here that it is worth checking. Some who swear they have never had the issue have done a quick test and found that their bullets will push into a case by hand quite easily. That is the only reason I use a Udie. My rounds have always chambered fine even with my dillon sizer die but only the Udie will give me the neck tension I need to hold MG bullets tight in FC brass.

I wish everybody reading this would take a minute and grab a handful of their reloads and push one at a time against their bench. Measure before and after. If they shrink you need to look at fixing that somehow.

That is good information and worth everyone looking at. I think the double charge is just an easy excuse and get a lot of the blame weather it is or isn't the real cause.

As for an expert, I guess I am thinking someone who works for the gun makers developing, testing and analyzing the guns under all and any condition. As for covering things up, I am sure the threat of endless law suites is motivation enough. If it wasn't I'm sure examples like what Glock suffered at the hands of their initial negative introduction and Hi Point still suffer under makes the decision final. The public should not know of any issues with firearms that they themselves can not be blamed for. Call me a conspiracy theorist but I am already aware of one example where a Taurus firearm had a catastrophic failure and was covered by Taurus with no information disclosed on why it failed, just here's your money sign the agreement. So It does happen, I wonder how often?

[GeneBray]

My 2 cents.

I've loaded ~100k rnd in 9mm and .40 S&W using TG and do issues.

By your admission, one was a double charge due to being distracted. That is a personal error. Can it be fixed or changes made to minimize this. Yes--change powders but people who use powders that more nearly fill the case still double charge and blow up guns. Just not as often.

The other gun kaboom. Puzzles me. Based on your input, my first thought is it was not a double charge. It could have been, but I'm back to how careful you were.

Using 3.1 grs and double charging to 6.2 grs should be VERY noticeable.

Check carefully the COL and crimp to ensure you are loading to proper length - short COL can cause VERY high pressures. Lack of sufficient crimp leads to setback and VERY high pressures....

If you can positively rule out human error in the 2nd kaboom, crimp, and COL as issues, I don't know where to look for a problem.

Is there any chance, the problem is related to case failure? Or, detonation during extraction? Both can be catastrophic.

One final though as I was about to post. Have you disassembled the powder drop and cleaned everything then reassembled and calibrated? A too small powder charge can detonate vice burn like it should. The result is a ruined gun.

Hope this was helpful.

[tires2burn]

When I set up to run a batch of whatever I charge the same case 2 times to see how full the powder comes up. That way I have a idea what a double charge looks like with the powder I'm using.

[Rockets]

In my opinion, a 550 is a very safe press. It's just like a Glock, the safety is between your ears.

Well said.. No distractions while reloading and look inside every case. I see no reason to use a powder that fills the case because of that reason. You need to PAY ATTENTION.

When I set up to run a batch of whatever I charge the same case 2 times to see how full the powder comes up. That way I have a idea what a double charge looks like with the powder I'm using.

I do that as well...

Edited November 28, 2013 by Rockets

[jmorris]

Six weeks ago, my daughter got distracted while reloading and double charged a round and it cost me a customized Browning HP.

Last night I loaded 100 rounds, with plenty of powder weight checks, and I know I was watching each round as I loaded it yet today one of those reloads blew up a Gen 1 Glock 19 that I've had and fired prob about 200,000 rounds through..

Makes a 650 or a 1050 with a powder check die seem cheap. At least no one got hurt.

[Gandof]

I have loaded TG last year for 9mm and 40 & 45 and never had any issues roughly about 30lbs of powder total.

30lbs of powder in one year for pistol calibers...

That's only 50k or so rounds. And I thought the 12-15k was a lot!