Stainless Steel Media and tumbling, idea, help, thoughts....

[jmorris]

Sure. 10 pieces of each.

If you want some "worse case" brass to test, send me a pm (I'll mail them to you on my dime, just to learn something). I have some that I put in the dawn/lemishine mix that ran for over 24 hours. The cases look visually different but none of the cases split or displayed any other signs of damage upon firing.

[Babaganoosh]

I do not think that Dawn, Pins, and water will cause an issue? Could be wrong... never an issue to this point.

It won't or it would have. Neither will the addition of Lemi-Shine. I would like to see a single documented case that can be proven, that the use of this combination alone caused a rupture of a brass case. If this is so dangerous and prevalent, examples would be everywhere, not just exist in one claim, by one person on an Internet gun forum.

I had a kaboom and I wet tumble and use lemishine. The case head blew right off. I forgot all about it but I was going to send it to him to check it for dezincification. Pending results it might be a case for this.

[Bill T]

I do not think that Dawn, Pins, and water will cause an issue? Could be wrong... never an issue to this point.

It won't or it would have. Neither will the addition of Lemi-Shine. I would like to see a single documented case that can be proven, that the use of this combination alone caused a rupture of a brass case. If this is so dangerous and prevalent, examples would be everywhere, not just exist in one claim, by one person on an Internet gun forum.

You know, I would like to add one thing to this... I have talked to several range officers and retired LEO instructors about this... they seem to be in agreement with you Bill. They have told me that they have actually shot thousands of loaded rounds where the actual brass casing was cracked (over the years)... basically on the rim,down the case, or up at the neck. If this is the case, even if there is some small breakdown of the case due to Dezinctification, that alone should not cause a case to "blow up"

I maybe wrong (and the other folks I have talked to in person)..... and am not saying that the folks on here do not know what they are saying but, after talking to literally hundreds of reloaders, LEO's, and range officers who have used stainless wet tumbling for well over 5 years... they have never, ever, once had a issue. They have also stated what I laid out above.

It would seem that if this was even a small issue, that 1 of these guys would have had an issue over the 5 years.

Lets just say that I talked to 100 folks and each of them shoot 5,000 reloads per year... thats a million reloaded rounds every 2 years that they shoot collectively, and 2.5 million rounds over the last 5 years.... you would have to assume that of the 2.5 million rounds they have all shot, if this was really an issue there would have been one bang or issue right?

I'm in 100% agreement with you on this subject. Look, cases rupture all the time in reloading for various reasons. Over worked, work hardened brass, high pressure overloads, incorrect headspace, just to name a few. I've had factory loaded .454 Casull cases split on the first firing. The ones that didn't were usually only good for a single reload. That cartridge operates at 63,000 PSI. In a revolver no less. As I mentioned before, I've reloaded .338-378 Weatherby Magnum brass at similar pressures after many Stainless Steel, Dawn, Lemi-Shine tumbles for hours on end, all with no problems what so ever.

In addition to that I worked in the machine tool trades my entire life. At one facility we manufactured high pressure brass valves and fittings that were used in gas Nitrous Oxide anesthetic systems for the dental industry. All of these operations were closely monitored by the Food And Drug Administration. We wet tumbled these parts extensively in Stainless Steel Pin media to remove small burrs, and to give the parts a good, uniform appearance. Many of these valves are subjected to all but constant pressure at 2,500 PSI and above continuously. Again, no problems at all.

I'm not saying this "dezincification" doesn't take place. One only has to Google it and you'll find several articles on the subject. What I am saying is that it isn't enough of an issue to be of any significant worry to reloaders, and many manufacturers. If it were, there would have been incidents popping up all over on reloading forums everywhere. There aren't.

[Bill T]

Here is a bucket of 2,500 rounds of .223 / 5.56 MM that have been both wet tumbled in Stainless Steel Media, and dry polished in ground corn cob at least 5 times. The other cases are some .223 range pick up brass I brought home, that I picked off the ground at my local club. They were almost black from remaining on the ground so long, not to mention many were half filled with dried, caked mud. You can see how they came out both inside and out. There is no way this could be achieved with any other type of media.

If anything, I believe the Stainless Steel Media makes for SAFER brass, simply because it allows for viewing the slightest imperfection the case may have, on either the inside or outside. Normal ground corn cob cannot achieve this type of cleanliness.

[Steve RA]

I've experimented with various "mixes" and have decided that Dawn and hot water work the best - at least for me.

[Bill T]

I've experimented with various "mixes" and have decided that Dawn and hot water work the best - at least for me.

I use the same, but with Lemi-Shine. I might try a batch without the Lemi-Shine just to see. Also www.pelletsllc.com has some solutions avaliable designed for brass case cartridge cleaning. They sell their pellets to reloading places like Sinclair International.

[freakshow10mm]

My brass gets that clean with a walnut/corn cob mix. No drying, no rinsing, no mess.

[Cundiff5535]

My brass gets that clean with a walnut/corn cob mix. No drying, no rinsing, no mess.

Freak... I used to get range pick ups that I could tumble in a Dillon and fit about 1000-1500 per load. My media would get contaminated within 5-8 loads though. Since I have a LEO contract for their brass, the brass gets far to muddy and dirty to use standard tumbling. The media would be trash after one use and it still wouldn't be clean.... Here is an example of how dirty this stuff is... last time I got a call to come out, I got 7 5 Gallon buckets of brass, once I cleaned, tumbled and dried, I had a total of 5 buckets full. Thats two 5 gallon buckets full of shit that have to be washed off etc.

Additionally, even if the brass was clean, I can get around 5-6000 pieces of brass done per load which cuts my work time in half by over double...

[Trident]

Bill T,

I have ready your posts with..... well interest.

"What I am saying is that it isn't enough of an issue to be of any significant worry to reloaders"

Really?

It seems to me that that will not be the case for those that are genuinely concerned to do things right, to the best of their ability to do so, and for their safety and for those around them. And of coarse, for the one, or two, that looses a hand, their eye sight or a body part, or to those that are cleaning and selling brass to others who should end up in court or in jail now doesn't it? Maybe one day be you... who knows? Is it worth it to you.... that's your call to make just like driving after having a beer or the other things you do that are also calculated risks which from your posts, my bet you also do.

"If anything, I believe the Stainless Steel Media makes for SAFER brass, simply because it allows for viewing the slightest imperfection the case may have, on either the inside or outside. Normal ground corn cob cannot achieve this type of cleanliness.

So Bill T, you can "see" dezincification and can tell, and rate, the structural soundness of metal from viewing the shiny exterior? Seems you may be confusing purely visual aesthetics to the structural soundness of the metal.

BTW, what is your formal education, certifications, and background, that would hold up in court to a legal case that allows you to make such claims?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Trident

[jmorris]

When you polish brass using any method you are removing material from it. That's pretty simple for anyone to understand.

To measure dezincification you would need to test brass samples from the same lot as the proportions of zinc and copper (and other elements) are not something that is a constant in brass manufacturing to begin with. If they were all the same we wouldn't have "good/bad" brass threads.

I would still be interested in sending Mark some to test just to know how much the effect is. None, that I have been able to tell from my testing. From what I have learned through testing, in rifle cases at least, that proper annealing will make a wet tumbled "dezincificated" case last longer than one just tumbled in corncob or walnut.

If lawyers always drove manufacturing decisions there wouldn't be any aluminum, steel or nickel coated cases made these days. As I have seen all of them fail much faster than brass cleaned using either wet or dry methods.

Edited April 16, 2013 by jmorris

[Bill T]

So Bill T, you can "see" dezincification and can tell, and rate, the structural soundness of metal from viewing the shiny exterior? Seems you may be confusing purely visual aesthetics to the structural soundness of the metal.

You need to work on your comprehension. I didn't say you can "see dezincification". What I said is you can see imperfections inside the case, that you cannot otherwise view. Because other tumbling methods do not produce the internal cleanliness wet tumbling in Stainless Steel does. Internal rings that begin to form right before head separation for example. Shoulder and case neck splits that just begin to form from frequent reloading. This has nothing to do with dezincification, but can be caused by the case itself being stretched by improper headspace, and work hardening associated with extensive full length resizing.

You're trying to read things that simply are not there. As I said, if this was happening you would be hearing about it with regularity on more than one reloading forum, from a hell of a lot more than one or two people. All your fear mongering about law suits and jail is foolish and irresponsible, because you cannot produce one single case failure that was brought about by dezincification caused by tumbling in Stainless Steel Media. When you can, come back and you'll have something to discuss. Now you do not.

[Trident]

Bill T,

So.... now you want me to believe that you don't care anything about about cleaning processes that could cause problems and/or dezincification but you do examine down the .223 throat of each cartridge into the interior of every 223/556 that you have and inspect it for imperfections? Ya.... right.

BTW, there are legal cases and you can find them. It is not anyones job to educate you. Your choices are well... your choices. Any who said it was SS media that causes it.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't just educate yourself and continue to make the best informed decisions without stating facts that you can't back-up or support with sufficient eduction, certification or the professional credentials and I learned early in UDT to have respect for those other folks as there is always smarter and more informed people than a tool and die maker.

[Bill T]

Trident, I'm done with you. You want to argue, I don't. Personally, I could care less what you do or don't believe. I've most likely been reloading longer than you've been alive, (42 years). And I don't need or want your advice. I'm tired of hearing about your "credentials", that you wave around in every post, like some type of badge of honor. They and you do not impress me. Have a nice day.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Bill T

[Trident]

Trident, I'm done with you. You want to argue, I don't. Personally, I could care less what you do or don't believe. I've most likely been reloading longer than you've been alive, (42 years). And I don't need or want your advice. I'm tired of hearing about your "credentials", that you wave around in every post, like some type of badge of honor. They and you do not impress me. Have a nice day.

Bill T, your mistaken I do not want to argue at all and I never said that I have the credentials either a bit a mechanical engineering background. However, Markco does. You have been arguing with Markco someone who has much more credentials than yourself on a matter that, other than first hand experience, you have no legitimate knowledge of. And there are folks who have been drinking or driving for 42 years without an accident, maybe even yourself, but that does not make it safe or appropriate. Good day.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Trident

[Bill T]

And there are folks who have been drinking or driving for 42 years without an accident, most likely yourself, but that does not make it safe or appropriate.

I'm Diabetic. I don't drink. Try again.

[Trident]

And there are folks who have been drinking or driving for 42 years without an accident, maybe even yourself, but that does not make it safe or appropriate.

I'm Diabetic. I don't drink. Try again.

Great, you got my point! have a great day!

[jmorris]

As a person that have fixed problems for people that have a PHD in BS. I don't see the point in bickering.

If there are cases pending (I am sure there are some) if you use them to make your point you should link them.

I could link a case of too hot a cup of coffee if it were pertinent to the topic.

Any opinions to the questions raised in #85?

Seems like we have lost topic and just need a tape measure and pants around the ankle at this point...

Edited April 17, 2013 by jmorris

[Sarge]

Amazing how long this crap has been allowed to go on. Where is a mod when you really need them?

Seems like the forums are losing their appeal with all the newcomers who like to argue non stop.

Slowly turning into just another Internet forum.

[Miranda]

hi sarge,

I agree that a mod should be notified..... they can't read 'em all.

and the thread might not get locked.

of note is that I didn't sent a note to the mod team last night. maybe next time.

[z28barnett]

I am not an expert on dezincification.

I do some hand washing of .45 Brass. I was pretty liberal with the lemishine and used hot water. I have made "Pink" brass with that method.

SInce I am loading target level ammo I have no seen a problem with the cases.

But I am concerned that the stress cracking could have been started

I was thinking about going to wet tumbling due to high blood lead levels - 27 vs 4.9 normal.

I noticed that the pellets LLC offers a zinc tumbling media.

Would the presence of Zinc pins rubbing around the cases avoid the loss of zinc from the cartridge alloy to the water?

Would this then prevent the stress cracking and allow wet tumbling without damaging the cases?

[z28barnett]

I added 1tsp of Lemi Shine to 2 gallons of hot tap water. The PH went from 7 to 3. This is about the same as classic coke which will rust iron nails to nothing.

I would suggest 1/4 tsp or no lemi shine.

[Babaganoosh]

I added 1tsp of Lemi Shine to 2 gallons of hot tap water. The PH went from 7 to 3. This is about the same as classic coke which will rust iron nails to nothing.

I would suggest 1/4 tsp or no lemi shine.

Stop using hot water. Use cold. Everywhere says use cold water. Use cold! If possible use cold distilled.

[ctay]

If dezincification occurs when water and brass meet - wouldn't much of the range brass we use have experienced dezincification? Outside in the rain and dirt... Is range brass safe?

[z28barnett]

I added 1tsp of Lemi Shine to 2 gallons of hot tap water. The PH went from 7 to 3. This is about the same as classic coke which will rust iron nails to nothing.

I would suggest 1/4 tsp or no lemi shine.

Stop using hot water. Use cold. Everywhere says use cold water. Use cold! If possible use cold distilled.

PH is a measure of free ions - temperature does not change PH. Cold acid is a little less active than hot acid - but still acid. Distilled water could be worse than tap, it contains no dissolved minerals and can be more aggressive about striping ions like zinc. More I look into to it - the less I like about wet tumbling.

Edited February 1, 2014 by z28barnett

[z28barnett]

If dezincification occurs when water and brass meet - wouldn't much of the range brass we use have experienced dezincification? Outside in the rain and dirt... Is range brass safe?

I would say no - not if it has had lengthy exposure to limestone / dirt / water. Sucks but on metal .010 thick doesn't take much.