Stainless Steel Media and tumbling, idea, help, thoughts....

[ajg308]

I have this same mixer. I use it dry and it works for me! My brass just needs to be clean, I don't really care if it shines or if the inside is clean.

[MarkCO]

I have been stainless tumbling brass for awhile with lemi-shine and without I do not let brass set in water more than 4 hours probably. I know a lot of F Class guys doing the same thing without any trouble. De Zincification must be an extreme scenerio.

Nope, http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=158596&hl=+dezincification#entry1800296

I am actually going to look at a case rupture next month on a rifle in which the shooter lost his hand, the cause was dezincification due to wet tumbling using some of the same products listed in this thread.

Like I said, there is a lot of ignorance on this subject. There was in other industires and after enough accidents, people change their ways. Hope you all can stay lucky in your pursuits.

[Steve RA]

That looks pretty good, if it makes you happy in that condition I'd just do it like that. Be sure and rinse all the soap off.

If you should decide to deprime prior to the washing it will make the interior of the case cleaner, and, clean the primer pocket pretty well.

[GuildSF4]

I was also thinking of running a magnet through it to make sure there are no little ones hiding or over looked.

Most Stainless is non-magnetic, not sure about these pins. You would have to check this. (400 series stainless or Precipitation hardened are magnetic, 300 series (304, 316...) are not.)

[Steve RA]

The ones from Pellets, LLC are attracted to a magnet.

[The_Vigilante]

So if we remove the Lemishine from the equation there is no dezincification?

[Cundiff5535]

Im going to tumbled a load with no lemishine, I am curious to see how much effect it has on "cleaning and shine". I will post some pics of brass with lemishine and without. If it doesn't make a huge difference, I would probably lean more towards leaving it out as it sounds like there could be some risks involved.

I am curious now as to how many times it takes tumbling brass to really break it down. Is it as soon as it comes in contact with specific chemicals that dezincification happens? Does it take 1 minute or 1 hour or 1 day to start happening? Once the process happens, is it contaminated and can it be stopped by washing it off? All these things would seems to be of great importance to reloaders and folks who use wet tumbling as a means of cleaning metal.

I tried looking around and google searching these questions but, didnt have a whole lot of luck.... with that said, I probably didnt look hard enough as I have been pretty busy and anytime I start reading or typing my 2 kids keep interrupting me asking for help with random things...lol

Very interesting topic though... I will say, Mark, I am curious to hear reports on that bullet as I know a few hundred guys who reload 223 brass and some wet tumble it... I would def want to share your findings and conclusions with them.

It can be a very scary thing to have a firearm blow up... Shit, its scary to witness it. This Last fall, I saw a guy blow up his Benchrest AR. The bullet he was using had a double charged drop and the case that had a small crack in the neck (obviously he didnt know it). The gentleman was an Retired LEO and department range instructor. His AR literally blew up.. scope blew up, lower was literally bulged out and fully cracked... upper was cracked horizontally straight across the picatinny rail, mag blew out and the guy just sat there and started laughing... I ran over to make sure he was ok, I asked why he was laughing? He replied because I can see and I have both my hands! The rifle, barrel and case was examined by two very well know folks in the midwest.

One who I know through my uncle was Jeff Chudwin, the other is Ned Christiansen. I was told Christiansen was supposed to be writing an article on the charge and blow up but, I have not heard much or seen it.

Anyway, just some interesting thoughts on all this!

Edited January 18, 2013 by Cundiff5535

[MarkCO]

In batch testing of 100 coupons with perfect conditions, you will get dezincification in 100% of the sample. In distilled rapid flowing waters, you will not get dezincificaiton in any of the samples. Everything else is inbtween and variable dependant. Someone above mentioned heat...heat accelerates the process, but the initiation is NOT temperature dependant.

If the conditions are suitable to initiate, a small percentage of the cartidge cases will have dezincifcation. Once initiated, the dezincification process can be arrested, however, stress corrosion cracking can then take over and it really can not be suitably arrested. The process, given the conditions of wet tumbling, can initiate in as little as 10 minutes. I went through some of my research on this yesterday afternoon and if you have detergent (some oxidizers, acids or caustics) the process can start. Brass has a factor of safety and really what occurs is the factor of safety is slowed diminished. So if you have brass in the wet tumbler for an hour, you have probably initiated the process to the point where SCC can take over even if you can arrest the dezincificaiton. But, probably an insignificant reduction in the strength. For instance, most match loads for .40 major are in the 28Kpsi range and the rupture strength is in the 60Kpsi range (wth a lot of variables). Take out 10% and you are still good. Load the ammo and it sits in Houston for 20 years, you probably are no longer good. The factor of safety for rifle brass is a smaller percentage.

Here is the zinger...if you have 100 pieces, you might initiate the process in only a few. The mechanical action (erosion) of the stainless rods accelerates the process as well. If you take a piece of cold rolled steel and give it a mirror smooth polish and then put one tiny scratch on it and set it outside in Houston....go back 3 weeks later and the polished portion will be rust free, but the scratch will be rusted. Same thing happens when you use a combination of chemical cleaners and mechanical cleaners on brass. Uniform surface dezincificaiton would be less of a hazzard than pitted or site specific dezincificaiton which creates a stress concentration.

Have you ever wondered why no major manufacturer promotes wet tumbling of brass and sell no products for that purpose? Ultrasonic removes the mechanical agitation and thus reduces the potential for the initiation of dezincificaiton.

The very small amounts of Chlorine compounds (less than 4ppm) in potable water are sufficient to start the process. Detergents contain chlorine and or amonia compounds that certainly start the process. Dish washing detergents have buffering agents that are intended to regulate the pH levels, but they are insuffcient to prevent the initaiton of dezincification in cartridge brass.

Edited January 18, 2013 by MarkCO

[ctay]

One more question then... Does this process only happen in acidic PH? Ie what if I added a base like baking soda - would that tend to reduce the dezincification or must it be a neutral ph to reduce dezincification?

[Cundiff5535]

Just wanted to show some pics of what happened yesterday when I tumbled more brass... BTW, I used very little Lemishine (or no Lemishine in most of it... didnt effect the brass cleaning at all). Will Dawn cause an issue?

Ok, I want to provide some feedback on what I did yesterday... I tumbled each batch for 35 mins.... That being said, I did roughly 25,000 empties from 2:30pm-6:00pm! Not a bad tumbling day at all I will say!

Here are step by step pics of what I did and the end results.... even though this is pic heavy, I could have took a lot more but, I think it would have been overkill (This is already overkill).

Before I post the pics though, I want to say, I think its interesting as you will see in my pictures... I am still not using stainless media... the brass itself is acting as the media would and agitating against itself.

Brass... this is 38 speical brass, most of the brass looks similar to this:

45acp Brass dirty as heck:

More brass that is not as bad:

Edited January 19, 2013 by Cundiff5535

[Cundiff5535]

Filling up the mixer... Water:

Dawn

Brass into the mixer:

[Cundiff5535]

Brass in almost totally covered and ready to go!

Starting to mix:

Fully mixing:

[Cundiff5535]

35 mins later....

Into my rinsing tub....

Drying table with heat lamp... Bling Bling!!

[Cundiff5535]

Video of the tumbler in action:

[klinlv]

Have you ever wondered why no major manufacturer promotes wet tumbling of brass and sell no products for that purpose? Ultrasonic removes the mechanical agitation and thus reduces the potential for the initiation of dezincificaiton.

I would be careful with ultrasonic cleaners also. I use them everyday and the test for efficacy is to put tin foil in the chamber with just distilled water, run it for 10 minutes and examine the number of pinholes in the foil. If the are no holes there is no cleaning other than the action of water. The more hole in the foil the "better" the cleaning will be.

Edited January 25, 2013 by klinlv

[MarkCO]

Have you ever wondered why no major manufacturer promotes wet tumbling of brass and sell no products for that purpose? Ultrasonic removes the mechanical agitation and thus reduces the potential for the initiation of dezincificaiton.

I would be careful with ultrasonic cleaners also. I use them everyday and the test for efficacy is to put tin foil in the chamber with just distilled water, run it for 10 minutes and examine the number of pinholes in the foil. If the are no holes there is no cleaning other than the action of water. The more hole in the foil the "better" the cleaning will be.

True.

[Steve RA]

RE: Comment about no maker recommending the stainless pin method:

Remember, older members, that the Mfrs certainly didn't go for, or recommend, reloading at all in earlier days. Things change.

[chadp]

Mark, would you be willing to test a few samples of brass that have had various amounts of firings and wet tumbling? I'd really like to know if what I've been doing is breaking it down. How many pieces of each group are needed to have a valid test?

Thanks!

[MarkCO]

Sure. 10 pieces of each.

[procovert45]

I have 300wm brass with 6 loadings all stainless tumbled with lemi shine. Mildly flatened primer loads , pockets/case heads all still tip top. All this brass weakness is bukakee. Pistol pressure is def a no worry scenario. But be your own judge " my liability waiver" (;

[Steve RA]

I'm sure what Marko is saying is correct, the only question is exactly how much does it weaken the case, tumbled once or many times?? It might possibly be that it doesn't affect it enough to make a practical difference. I don't know, although have tumbled many cases with the stainless pin method, and have never experienced any problem. I certainly would not say the dezincification does not occur, just wonder what percentage of weakening occurs ???

[chadp]

I'm sure what Marko is saying is correct, the only question is exactly how much does it weaken the case, tumbled once or many times?? It might possibly be that it doesn't affect it enough to make a practical difference. I don't know, although have tumbled many cases with the stainless pin method, and have never experienced any problem. I certainly would not say the dezincification does not occur, just wonder what percentage of weakening occurs ???

Exactly. I'd like to have a better idea of the risk involved under the circumstances I normally operate in. The consequences are fairly high, though. I kinda like my hands, face, eyes... But if it's 1 in 500,000 or a matter of just cutting out the Lemi-Shine, then it would be worth sacrificing 30-40 cases to find out.

Mark, I believe you also mentioned hot water being a factor. Is that due to the mineral deposits normally found in hot water heaters and their acidity, or something to do with the heat itself?

Thank you very much for your input.

[MarkCO]

Higher temperatures increase chemical reaction rates.

[Steve RA]

Sorry for misspelling your screen name !

[MarkCO]

No worries, my last name has desensitized me to that kind of thing.