What feedback should I garner from this?

[Nimitz]

I picked up a pistol and started shooting and competition USPSA shooting one year ago. I've been religiously following Mike Seeklander's training program for the year including taking classes from him at the start (jan 2012) and again last month .... 2,000 - 2,4000 rds/month + 1 match/month. His evaluation of me was "you've developed into a very solid shooter and are exactly where I expected you to be after training like you have". Ok, fair enough but there are 2 what I consider 'glaring' issues with my shooting that I don't think I'm making good progress on; one is shot calling but that's not the primary question I have although I do realize that if I was able to call my shots I'd know the answer to the question I'm about to ask ....

For my training sessions I purposly reuse the same targets over and over. I do this for 2 reasons: 1) I'm a cheap bastard and hate to pay for targets and 2) it allows me to see trends in my shooting that would otherwise go un noticed with new targets.

So, here's the issue. If you look at any of my targets ( which usually last about 2-3 weeks before I change them) they ALL look the same ... Hits are either A zone or C zone center left. The number of hits which fall elsewhere are literally at a 100 to 1 ratio.

So, my question is simple: what is the reason for my shots consistently going center left if they are not A hits?

[The_Vigilante]

Just wonderin' if you asked Mike that question?

[toothguy]

Usually center left hits are from tightening the strong hand fingers (milking the grip) or to much finger on the trigger (right handed shooter).

[blairmckenzie1]

have you checked your sights?

[Nimitz]

sights installed by a Glock Armorer ...

[Dwight Stearns]

Double check to make sure the gun is sighted in for you. You say the sights were installed by a Glock armorer who may have simply installed the sights to the factory position. If your Glock is a. 40, I have found that about a third of all Glock. 40's shoot to the left straight from the factory. (9's and. 45's don't seem to have that issue )

If it isn't the sights then it has to be something technical that you are doing that is causing movement immediately before firing.

[blairmckenzie1]

i would start with checking your sights

Edited January 10, 2013 by blairmckenzie1

[Nimitz]

it is a 9mm ... what procedure would you recommend for verifying the sights are alligned correctly?

[daves_not_here]

Always blame the gun!

Actually, this may help. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

100 to 1 ratio sounds intermittent. If it's directly left the chart says it's trigger finger placement.

Milking as mentioned could also be the cause. Maybe try and remember if you were rushing or tense when you throw C's.

The misalignment may be happening just before the trigger break and would be hard to detect. "Trigger press is more important than sight alignment" - Miculek

DNH

[toothguy]

it is a 9mm ... what procedure would you recommend for verifying the sights are alligned correctly?

I use sandbags I made from tire tubes. If I don't have them I will shoot prone. Usually put a paster up a 15 yrds, should shoot about 1/2'' low.

Edited January 10, 2013 by toothguy

[kevin c]

Are you shooting pairs? Shooting multiple pairs on one target, sometimes the second shot will group away from the first because of it breaks at a different point from the first as you recover from the recoil. Among many possibilities here, you might be:

not waiting to let the sight picture recover to the same as what you broke the first shot with, or

the sight picture has recovered and has stabilized, but to a different point of aim from the first, or

your grip or trigger press is different on the second shot compared to the first, pushing the shot off.

If all the shots, both centered and off center, are individually aimed and fired off, then the other posters' comments apply more than mine.

Edited January 10, 2013 by kevin c

[Nimitz]

All my training reps at paper targets during a drill are as in a match, 2 shots. I think 1 and/or 3 are the most likely. What I don't know is if most of the center left hits are the second shot ... Am I shooting A-C or C-C or even C-A ... That would probably be very diagnostic ...

I was told by a local master class shooter who helps me out every now and then that it was a trigger finger issues...

[Nimitz]

It might be interesting to run some reps on a few of my drills with just one shot and see where the hits are after 10 1 shot reps ... I'm assuming my shots are usually A-C but ...

[Sin-ster]

Are your hits in the A-zone off to the left, or mostly centered (where you're aiming)?

As someone else suggested, try running one of your drills and only firing one shot at the target. Draw and one; reload and one. Then do some transitions, shooting 2 on each target but the last. Then do the same drill, but change the target you only shoot at once. This will help you determine if it's only your first shot (probably an index issue), only your 2nd, or an even mixture of both. Once you know that, if there's a trend, you can really start to eliminate things.

Throw that "shooting correction chart" right out of the window. My misses in practice are left, like yours-- close C's to the left of POA, as a right handed shooter. Because I can call my shots (helps out immensely in diagnosing things), I know that it's not a matter of index and it comes on my 2nd shot more often than not.

A lot of righties struggle with left-side hits with Glocks. I did, as well as with my M&P... and in the little practice I have with the new CZs, thats where my misses are as well.

In my case, it's typically a trigger press issue. Yes, conventional (bullseye) wisdom tells us that low-left shots are indicative of trigger jerk. After ~25k rounds last year, I'm assuming your recoil management has come along quite a bit-- as has your grip strength and NPA. So, too, has your trigger press!

What I'm driving at is that you can whack the crap out of the trigger and not see much (if any) vertical spread as a result-- but the hit WILL still be to the left, often notably more than conventional wisdom would have you believe. As we start to shoot faster, our trigger finger typically drifts out of the guard until the very tip is engaging the trigger face. This will also contribute to you pushing shots away from that hand-- so left, for a righty.

[daves_not_here]

Glock + hits to left = Glockitis!

I remember in the beginning my finger would get so far out to where I pushed trigger safety sideways hard enough to lock out the trigger.

Now I make sure I get a "curl" to it which seems to keep it on the trigger and going straight back. Curling my finger also keeps it off the frame.

DNH

Edited January 11, 2013 by daves_not_here

[Steve Anderson]

If it's always your second shot, what if you shot two 1st shots at a target?

That may not seem like a serious question, but I assure you it is... I see a lot of shooters shoot the second shot as an extension of the first one as opposed to its own action. Call it a sliding scale of double tapping, perhaps...

I would say you should go out and do WHATEVER it takes to shoot two As on a target.

(I know, that probably sounds dumb too, but stick with me)

In the course of deciding to do that, you'll be forced to figure out what is necessary to do that, in order to do that.

BTW, I had the same problem recently after getting my open gun back last fall after a cracked slide and a long break... I did what I'm advising you to do.

If you decide to correct it, you'll have no choice but to figure it out.

It will involve paying close attention...

Hope that helps.

SA

[Matt Griffin]

It's always too much strong hand when I do the same, my grip tension is changing between the first and second shot, no doubt in response to recoil. Put your brain in your trigger fingertip and feel the texture of the trigger face during both shots, if you do that it will likely distract you enough that you'll be consistent in other areas of your hands.

[Nimitz]

thxs all. After this morning's training session I believe I know at least part of the answer ... I was practicing CM 09-02 since it will be one of the stages at the FL State match next week and because of all the no-shoots I forced myself to be more deliberate with sight management and trigger management & recoil management. In almost every rep the 2 shots on each target were 1-2 inches apart, and in several cases less than 1 inch so I was managing not to pull my second shot left. Basically I was forcing myself to slow down enough to ensure I was seeing the front sight return into the niotch before breaking the second shot ....

So basically I think a big part of those 2nd shots going center left is going faster than I'm capable of at this point to ensure an A zone hit. As my local coach says ... "slow down & ensure you get your hits ..."

As an aside, our local club just started a monthly US Steel match which I shot for the first time last week and plan on shooting monthly. Should help me to learn to transition quicker but still get the necessary hits ...

[tortuga]

Post a picture of your target, without seeing the dispersion of the shots it is kind of hard to say.

[Nimitz]

Here's a sample from this morning's training session ... so it appears that I've correctly identified the problem & corrected it ...

[Steve RA]

Get somebody to watch, they should be able to tell which shot is which.

[Nimitz]

Given the relative grouping go those shots depicted in the above pics I'm not sure it's necessary? If they were continuing to go: center and center left I'd agree it would be valuable to know ...

[daves_not_here]

"slowing down enough to see the front sight return..."

How much time did slowing down cost you? It may just seem slower since you're concentrating on seeing something.

A couple of months ago I was amazed at how fast the front sight comes down and how much time I was just admiring my sights.

DNH

[Nimitz]

while it's possible I may have 'over corrected' and am waiting longer than is necessary to take the 2nd shot, at this point I'm far more concerned with ensuring I'm seeing what I need to see before breaking the 2nd shot than whether my splits are .5 or .4 or whatever. Decreased split times while maintaining 2 good hits will come with time as the number of reps increases ...

[toothguy]

while it's possible I may have 'over corrected' and am waiting longer than is necessary to take the 2nd shot, at this point I'm far more concerned with ensuring I'm seeing what I need to see before breaking the 2nd shot than whether my splits are .5 or .4 or whatever. Decreased split times while maintaining 2 good hits will come with time as the number of reps increases ...

Try shooting groups before and after a practice session. Shoot at a single paster from 15yrds using good follow through, don't reset the trigger until the sights return. Focus totally on the trigger and observe what the sights do.