jcarpenter82 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 My anecdote on this topic. My very first match I shot a plate rack. 5 perfect shots then missed the 6th plate once or twice before dropping it. My trainer laughed and said "at the 5th plate you though 'this is going well'." He was right. He explained to me how conscious thought screws with your shooting, and I absolutely got it. I can relate to that. It goes a lil something like this... POW-PING!-pow-PING-pow-PING-pow-pow-'CRAP'-pow-'CRAP'-pow-'CRAP' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuentesd99 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 a matt, I have never noticed this when we shoot together, but, do you go thru the stage in your mind with your eyes closed? I know I do this and especially when I am in the hole/on deck. I will pay more attention to you before you shoot for now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuentesd99 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 My anecdote on this topic. My very first match I shot a plate rack. 5 perfect shots then missed the 6th plate once or twice before dropping it. My trainer laughed and said "at the 5th plate you though 'this is going well'." He was right. He explained to me how conscious thought screws with your shooting, and I absolutely got it. I can relate to that. It goes a lil something like this... POW-PING!-pow-PING-pow-PING-pow-pow-'CRAP'-pow-'CRAP'-pow-'CRAP' +1 for me, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 a matt, I have never noticed this when we shoot together, but, do you go thru the stage in your mind with your eyes closed? I know I do this and especially when I am in the hole/on deck. I will pay more attention to you before you shoot for now on. That's cool Dave, I worked on it hard today at the match. Things went pretty well. The stage/target memorization and conscious focus on calling shots/sights. Think goodness for the resoot on stage 2 that was going to be ugly. I think you got a little busy with that mag thing! Lmao. How would you work on this other than shooting matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Shocked my conscious a couple of times at the WSSSC, one example is on stage 7 stepped into the final position and the gun goes 'Bang' dead center hit on the popper. Felt really good. (Still need more practice and dry fire time, way slower than I used to be. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Shocked my conscious a couple of times at the WSSSC, one example is on stage 7 stepped into the final position and the gun goes 'Bang' dead center hit on the popper. Felt really good. (Still need more practice and dry fire time, way slower than I used to be. ) GuildSF4, Very cool! I've had that happen twice now. I thought the first one was an accidental discharge, even though it felt correct, sight picture, called shot etc. I've checked with my instructor (GM, Distinguished Master etc.) and this is the correct thing happening. It really isn't a technique since it's subconscious which is where we want it to be. My only problem is what I do after this happening. I stand there for a moment going "that was cool!". I'm enjoying enough now not to get upset over that. I've shot about 10,000 rounds. I wonder if this is the 10,000 repetitions mastery thing? DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) My only problem is what I do after this happening. I stand there for a moment going "that was cool!". I'm enjoying enough now not to get upset over that. Yep I do that... (Don't know about the 10,000 repetition mastery thing... I've shot a few more than 10,000... still working on it...) Edited February 4, 2013 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 WSSSC was a great match for subconscious shooting! I noticed when I came back into conscious shooting on the second to last stage: 2 strings; 1-six paper reload then plate rack(strong hand); string 2 same except the plate rack was weak hand. Clean the strong hand plate rack. Then on the weak hand starting acknowledging all was going well then miss on second to last plate. The crowd groaned. Make up shot. The last stage was Robbie's. Rocked the poppers-all subconscious shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I had a day full of it Sat. past. The one stage that I fell apart I got a reshoot ( timmer stopped keeping time ) I pulled things back together. I'm not saying I rocked anything but I felt like I was just doing and not thinking. I contribute this to stage visualization. I ran it over and over till I knew it like the back of hand. Lord I hope this is a break though? Time and visualization will tell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuentesd99 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I had a day full of it Sat. past. The one stage that I fell apart I got a reshoot ( timmer stopped keeping time ) I pulled things back together. I'm not saying I rocked anything but I felt like I was just doing and not thinking. I contribute this to stage visualization. I ran it over and over till I knew it like the back of hand. Lord I hope this is a break though? Time and visualization will tell.. Trust me, it will help. Do you remember when I first stated last year? Huge difference from then and now. And a lot has to do with visualizing the stage before I shoot it. Even Saul tells you that you should be able to run the stage in your head with your eyes closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks bro. Or should I say D-a-d-d-y. Hummm. Makes one think. Bwaaaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 When I was competing I never thought about conscious or subconscious shooting. My goal was to learn how to do everything I did without thinking about any aspect of it. Conscious, smonscious, I always said. (I never really said that.) be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 That make since too. Dont think, just do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) smonscious? Is that beyond subconscious like the force? Is that what I'm missing? "...to learn how to do everything I did without thinking about any aspect of it." - BE That is very meaningful to me. Words of wisdom in simple terms. Thank you again, DNH Edited February 6, 2013 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Visualization was a major turning point for me. The mind doesn't know the difference between something real and something vividly imagined, so if we visualize a stage thoroughly and properly, it's as if we've already shot it. Now that we know what to do and how to do it, we just have to call the shot. This will happen at our current level of subconscious skill. It will likely feel slow. I think the two most important skills for any shooter who thinks of themselves as struggling are visualization and shot calling. You'll be so far ahead of your peers locally that they will think it's magic. Throw in a serious dry fire program (backed up with live fire confirmation) and they'll think you're a God. It can be very hard to "let go" of the visualized stage right before shooting, but that's a big part of it... You have to give navigation over to the subcon. This is very scary the first few times you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) The mind doesn't know the difference between something real and something vividly imagined, so if we visualize a stage thoroughly and properly, it's as if we've already shot it. I've heard this a lot before, and I'm not sure it's entirely accurate that the mind doesn't know the difference between something real and vividly imagined... We know that the same brain regions are activated when a user is engaged in a "real" task and when they are vividly imagining it. And it's true that visualization is a powerful and underutilized tool - depending on the study and the skill, people who depended only on visualization gained 40-80% of the benefit of people who actually practiced (free throws, strength exercises, etc.). That's crazy! However, to me it seems a jump to conclude that the mind can't tell the difference. If the mind can't tell the difference between a very good visualization and the reality, then how can we know that our lives aren't just one big visualization? Like, what if we are all brains in vats imagining ourselves visualizing and then shooting "real" stages? Edited February 6, 2013 by Esther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinj308 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I'd recommend "Incognito: the secret lives of the brain" by David eagleman. Vivid imagination can be extremely deceiving, sometimes in a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 visualization seems to be.the.key to what i have been missing that and just shooting.Not trying to think my way trough the stage. get a plan visualize it, relax and let it happen and think about calling my shots. DONE !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Yes yes yes! Burn in the movie and then just call every shot! Then you can look at the results AFTER the match and see what needs work. It'll either be speed or accuracy. Or both. Just be sure to train one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 - depending on the study and the skill, people who depended only on visualization gained 40-80% of the benefit of people who actually practiced (free throws, strength exercises, etc.). That's crazy! However, to me it seems a jump to conclude that the mind can't tell the difference... CALL ME CRAZY!! I believe the mind can't tell the difference especially since it works so well in the negative direction. Convince your brain you can't do something and It will limit the body. I'm sure everyone knows of people who have choked from doubt. Then it follows if the body has been trained, through repetition and other conditioning, then the body is able to demonstrate what the mind envisions. I think we've seen this when things just "flow" and things "go exactly as we thought they would". Yes, just thinking about being a champion shooter isn't going to make you a champion but it is an important part of being a champion. (Basham, Lanny With Winning in Mind 3rd ed. 2012) DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 http://www.stack.com/video/2816145001/Stewart-Cink-on-Channeling-Energy-and-Handling-Pressure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 [ThreadDrift] If the mind can't tell the difference between a very good visualization and the reality, then how can we know that our lives aren't just one big visualization? How do you know that is not how it is? ... what if we are all brains in vats imagining ourselves visualizing and then shooting "real" stages? Didn't they make a movie in which that's how it was? ... Wasn't there a Keanu-guy in it? [/TD] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kita Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 visualization seems to be.the.key to what i have been missing that and just shooting.Not trying to think my way trough the stage. get a plan visualize it, relax and let it happen and think about calling my shots. DONE !!! On those days when you "just know" you're going to do well at a match, or you're having an "on day", maybe you are actually visualizing it going well and so it does. Some people can maintain consistency regardless of their mood, but others are severely influenced by it. If I wake up in a good disposition, and I'm visualizing a good day, the same bad things could happen as on a bad day. The difference is how I handle it. I laugh it off, shrug and move on. Whereas on a bad day, I dwell on it, drag my feet and visualize continuous bad things happening...which is a self-fulfilling prophecy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 visualization seems to be.the.key to what i have been missing that and just shooting.Not trying to think my way trough the stage. get a plan visualize it, relax and let it happen and think about calling my shots. DONE !!! On those days when you "just know" you're going to do well at a match, or you're having an "on day", maybe you are actually visualizing it going well and so it does. Some people can maintain consistency regardless of their mood, but others are severely influenced by it. If I wake up in a good disposition, and I'm visualizing a good day, the same bad things could happen as on a bad day. The difference is how I handle it. I laugh it off, shrug and move on. Whereas on a bad day, I dwell on it, drag my feet and visualize continuous bad things happening...which is a self-fulfilling prophecy! Ten Principles of Mental Management (from With Winning In Mind by Lanny Bassham) 1. When the Conscious Mind has a positive thought, it cannot, at the same time, be thinking negatively. 2. What you picture is crucial. 3. The Subconscious Mind is the source of all mental power. 4. The Subconscious moves you to do whatever the Conscious Mind is picturing. 5. The Self-Image and performance are always equal. 6. You can replace the Self-Image you have with the Self-Image you want, and therefore, permanently change performance. 7. When the Conscious, Subconscious, and Self-Image are balanced and working together, good performances are effortless. 8. The more we think about, talk about, or write about something happening, we improve the probability ot that thing happening. 9. The Self-Image cannot tell the difference between what actually happens and what is vividly imagined. 10. We value things in direct proportion to the price we pay for them. Lanny Basshams book goes into detail about each of these points. It's a quick read and well worth the $12.95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Lanny's book is also on CD. I listen to it while driving to the range. I don't think I would've ever finished reading the actual book. This forum is a one-stop-shop http://www.brianenos.com/pages/reviews.html $32.95 is worth the price. DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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