EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 A few things I would like... 1. More shotgun 2. Get the local band, rotc, 4h shooting team, boy scouts, etc. Out to set and paste. Bump the match fee $25 and give it to them. They make $12500 for their cause, the shooters have a little extra help, and the stages run faster. The 4Her's who helped a few years ago were great. I would let them scrounge the dump barrels and ground for shotgun shells and then get the guy with the sagia/xrail/akdal super cool open gun to let them shoot some steel with it in between shooters. 3. Crazy Quail side match 4. Harder, more technical stages. I've worked this match several years and I understand how important it is to turn squads on time, but the level of difficulty in the pro match needs to get turned up some. This year we had no cars to negotiate, no half scale swingers, no slugs, no offhand rifle of any distance, no texas stars, no spinners, etc. A few 100rd rifle targets that are only visible from a high port, or a 50 yd pistol gong, or some 70 yard slugs would be great! It's still my favorite match of the year and the one I look forward too most! See you guys next year. Gotta admit I like everything this guy is sayin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb3 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 My 2¢ worth... I did not shoot AM but I am an open shooter so I would love to see more guys shoot open. Seeing the way the prize table was run for the AM's it seems like a good way to kill off the open division at the grassroots level. If the table went by placing then I could definitely see having a separate table for open and tac optics, but as it is a random draw it seems like the Am open shooters were punished for shooting open. If it's a random draw, why split the divisions? Am I missing something here? It's not like they had an advantage over the tac Ops guys in a random draw. They paid the same entry, they shot the same stages but they don't get the same chance at a big prize table. Now I certainly don't want to seem hostile here, I had a great time and I think you guys run a great match, I just want to stick up for the new open shooters who will hopefully be the future of the open division. My prediction is if it continues this way amateur open is dead. As far as shooting on Thursday goes, I don't care what days we shoot as long as it's 70° and sunny (insert wishful thinking here) I think we may have talked briefly during the prize table. I'm sure there are several different opinions on prize table distribution, and we do not claim to have the perfect answer, but we learned from the best. The prize table management is almost harder than running the rest of the match put together. The first break in your argument, is that most 3 gun prize tables are run in similar fashion, that is that they split between categories, most with 4, ours only has two. If it was a "grassroots" killer, than the open division would have been long gone from every match. I think what you may be missing is how the prizes are distributed between categories. Most prize tables, including ours, distribute the prize table on percentages. If there are 24 open shooters and 226 Tac Ops shooters, the Open makes up 9.6% of the field. Let's just call it 10% like we did. If there are 40 guns on the prize table for all of AM, 10% go to the open table. If there are 100 hats for all of AM, 10 hats go to the open table. Same goes for optics, mags, Tactical Bacon, etc. By percentage, the open shooters have just as good of a chance to get a gun as the Tac Ops shooters. What you see as punishment, can also be seen as fairness. Just as a hypothetical, if it more or less fair that a last place Open shooter that didn't hit any targets, gets the same percentage chance to win a gun as the Tac Ops shooter that beat 80% of his peers with a #180 finish, 44 places out of first? There are other ways to look at it as well. The shooter bags represented a retail value almost equal to the AM entry fee, and then the 24th picked open shooter got some great sponsor provided product. Or then there's always the ability to just shoot the Pro Side, and let the brass fall where it may. It's broken down on the same type of percentage, but then it also matters how well you finished. We try to make it a great experience for all, and we are more than willing to hear any suggestions. I am completely aware of and fully understand how the prize tables are split up, for the pro side and most major matches. I also understand that other matches don't have a complete separate amateur match with its own prize table and random draw for it. I agree, the table on the pro side was split up as it should be. Since it was based on how you finished by division. As far as the Am side goes my only question is if it's a random draw for the prize table, why would you split the tables? Since it has nothing to do with where you place, what does it matter which division you are in? If memory serves, last year they weren't split for the AM's. So why the change? 1st place both divisions got to pick first then everyone else was a random draw. I am not questioning at all the way the pro side was set up. In fact I like it much better. Personally I come shoot because it's fun and competitive, the prize table is merely a bonus, so I really have no dog in this fight other than making a helpful suggestion that might not discourage future open shooters. I'm not suggesting that they get some preferential treatment. Simply that if a random draw is the intention, then everyone has the same odds at the same prizes. If that's not the intention then why not just go by placing and keep the table split, same as the pro side and every other match on the planet. Now I know it's easy to pick it apart from my end and I don't want you to think all your hard work is unappreciated. It was truly a great match and I for one am grateful for all that you guys are doing for shooting sports. At the end of the day you run it how you want to and I will still come and shoot without complaint. I merely brought it up because I thought you were asking for suggestions. Keep up the good work. Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunfighteruk Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 (edited) Where were the cars , boat's , zipwires & dark house From an Ro point of view (i was on pro 2) a food waggon would have been great in that area ! Three divisions could happen , Pro,AM & Novice. Pro & AM to the format that's allready in place & Novices on tue/wed. Novice would be so pumped up they would not mind taking time off work Novices could get hands on coaching & tips from Pro shooters willing to give a bit back , make "provided guns" available so newer shooters can compete with the right kit & not feel out gunned & who knows they could be next years AM's. Basic match fee for them ,no prize table BUT a shooters bag full , very full with good shooting products. Just my 10 cents ( or 6 pence over here ) Edited September 21, 2013 by gunfighteruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 A few things I would like... 1. More shotgun 2. Get the local band, rotc, 4h shooting team, boy scouts, etc. Out to set and paste. Bump the match fee $25 and give it to them. They make $12500 for their cause, the shooters have a little extra help, and the stages run faster. The 4Her's who helped a few years ago were great. I would let them scrounge the dump barrels and ground for shotgun shells and then get the guy with the sagia/xrail/akdal super cool open gun to let them shoot some steel with it in between shooters. 3. Crazy Quail side match 4. Harder, more technical stages. I've worked this match several years and I understand how important it is to turn squads on time, but the level of difficulty in the pro match needs to get turned up some. This year we had no cars to negotiate, no half scale swingers, no slugs, no offhand rifle of any distance, no texas stars, no spinners, etc. A few 100rd rifle targets that are only visible from a high port, or a 50 yd pistol gong, or some 70 yard slugs would be great! It's still my favorite match of the year and the one I look forward too most! See you guys next year. I like everything Tyler is saying! Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 We wound up shooting a mini match tuesday, wednesday, and thursday due to special attendees, RO's and wounded vets, while i have no issues whatsoever with going the extra mile for the vets, allowing 20ish extra shooters to shoot early is a logistical outhouse!! The RM's are required to proof stages before ANYONE can start to shoot, its something RNT will continue to do, so that delays are minimized and potential issues can be eliminated. More technical stages are fine but then you need to either drop the number of stages due to time constraints, or make more shorter stages to compensate or offset the time issues. Having more technical props is visually cool, however you also need to have twice as many so that you have back ups for when it goes down due to breakage or other issues. They also are the number one reason for delays and reshoots and getting stages thrown out,...........consistency is paramount!!, and simple is easy to make consistent. Now you can do more technical stages with simple stuff, but the idea is to allow the C class level shooter to finish a stage with 25% of the time left on the clock, this allows for maybe one malfunction clearing and still shoot the stage within the alloted time. We had several stages that took 4minutes plus to reset, from last shot to first shot. thats over an hour for 15 shooters just for reset, not including shoot time or walkthru, and many squads were larger than that. More technical stages take longer to reset, longer to shoot, cause more issues, have more calls for RM attention which causes the stage to shutdown, etc. While they do add to the competition and trust me I really prefer a technical stage to a run and gun wide open no noshoots type stage, they are not stages that you can simply put into a match without regard for where they are put or how they affect a matches smooth running. Think of it this way,..... IPSC has been doing this a very long time, (putting on BIG matches) they have a formula for keeping matches running in good order, the number of short courses to medium courses to long courses and it works,...................thats how you have a match with a lot of stages run on time and with minimal back ups, not by having all large courses of fire. A 30 stage match over 4 days, over 500 shooters and no back ups, but its not made up of all large COF's,................essentially Pro Am is a 2, 7-8 stage ( I can't remember how many stages we had this year) matches taking place simultaneously, or you could say its 15 stage match being shot in 3 days by 500 hundred people,...............that is a huge undertaking!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 We wound up shooting a mini match tuesday, wednesday, and thursday due to special attendees, RO's and wounded vets, while i have no issues whatsoever with going the extra mile for the vets, allowing 20ish extra shooters to shoot early is a logistical outhouse!! The RM's are required to proof stages before ANYONE can start to shoot, its something RNT will continue to do, so that delays are minimized and potential issues can be eliminated. More technical stages are fine but then you need to either drop the number of stages due to time constraints, or make more shorter stages to compensate or offset the time issues. Having more technical props is visually cool, however you also need to have twice as many so that you have back ups for when it goes down due to breakage or other issues. They also are the number one reason for delays and reshoots and getting stages thrown out,...........consistency is paramount!!, and simple is easy to make consistent. Now you can do more technical stages with simple stuff, but the idea is to allow the C class level shooter to finish a stage with 25% of the time left on the clock, this allows for maybe one malfunction clearing and still shoot the stage within the alloted time. We had several stages that took 4minutes plus to reset, from last shot to first shot. thats over an hour for 15 shooters just for reset, not including shoot time or walkthru, and many squads were larger than that. More technical stages take longer to reset, longer to shoot, cause more issues, have more calls for RM attention which causes the stage to shutdown, etc. While they do add to the competition and trust me I really prefer a technical stage to a run and gun wide open no noshoots type stage, they are not stages that you can simply put into a match without regard for where they are put or how they affect a matches smooth running. Think of it this way,..... IPSC has been doing this a very long time, (putting on BIG matches) they have a formula for keeping matches running in good order, the number of short courses to medium courses to long courses and it works,...................thats how you have a match with a lot of stages run on time and with minimal back ups, not by having all large courses of fire. A 30 stage match over 4 days, over 500 shooters and no back ups, but its not made up of all large COF's,................essentially Pro Am is a 2, 7-8 stage ( I can't remember how many stages we had this year) matches taking place simultaneously, or you could say its 15 stage match being shot in 3 days by 500 hundred people,...............that is a huge undertaking!!!! Trapr Couldn't a lot of those issues be resolved with the use of simple props and stages/targets that were faster to set up? A teammate of mine made some metal targets that flip back, have some knarly hinges, and are quickly flipped back up. While paper adds a level of difficulty when scoring hits, keep an paper that needs to be pasted in close. The stage Tyler RO'd took so long to reset because the paper was well paste the shooting position. Props could be as simple as a folding table, bench, plywood with a metal shield around a port that you have to shoot birdshot through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 We wound up shooting a mini match tuesday, wednesday, and thursday due to special attendees, RO's and wounded vets, while i have no issues whatsoever with going the extra mile for the vets, allowing 20ish extra shooters to shoot early is a logistical outhouse!! The RM's are required to proof stages before ANYONE can start to shoot, its something RNT will continue to do, so that delays are minimized and potential issues can be eliminated. More technical stages are fine but then you need to either drop the number of stages due to time constraints, or make more shorter stages to compensate or offset the time issues. Having more technical props is visually cool, however you also need to have twice as many so that you have back ups for when it goes down due to breakage or other issues. They also are the number one reason for delays and reshoots and getting stages thrown out,...........consistency is paramount!!, and simple is easy to make consistent. Now you can do more technical stages with simple stuff, but the idea is to allow the C class level shooter to finish a stage with 25% of the time left on the clock, this allows for maybe one malfunction clearing and still shoot the stage within the alloted time. We had several stages that took 4minutes plus to reset, from last shot to first shot. thats over an hour for 15 shooters just for reset, not including shoot time or walkthru, and many squads were larger than that. More technical stages take longer to reset, longer to shoot, cause more issues, have more calls for RM attention which causes the stage to shutdown, etc. While they do add to the competition and trust me I really prefer a technical stage to a run and gun wide open no noshoots type stage, they are not stages that you can simply put into a match without regard for where they are put or how they affect a matches smooth running. Think of it this way,..... IPSC has been doing this a very long time, (putting on BIG matches) they have a formula for keeping matches running in good order, the number of short courses to medium courses to long courses and it works,...................thats how you have a match with a lot of stages run on time and with minimal back ups, not by having all large courses of fire. A 30 stage match over 4 days, over 500 shooters and no back ups, but its not made up of all large COF's,................essentially Pro Am is a 2, 7-8 stage ( I can't remember how many stages we had this year) matches taking place simultaneously, or you could say its 15 stage match being shot in 3 days by 500 hundred people,...............that is a huge undertaking!!!! Trapr Couldn't a lot of those issues be resolved with the use of simple props and stages/targets that were faster to set up? A teammate of mine made some metal targets that flip back, have some knarly hinges, and are quickly flipped back up. While paper adds a level of difficulty when scoring hits, keep an paper that needs to be pasted in close. The stage Tyler RO'd took so long to reset because the paper was well paste the shooting position. Props could be as simple as a folding table, bench, plywood with a metal shield around a port that you have to shoot birdshot through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Yes, but there is the lack of technicality again?? and really there is no good reason why you can't put paper at 300 and have it taped and scored in the time it takes to reset the rest of the stage. it just requires personnel and getting RO's to bring quads and golf carts and such and then assigning those people to the right stages. Kurt and I have shot plenty of matches overseas where paper and knock down steel is used beyond 100yds and reset is done quick and the stages run on time. again there is no good reason it can't be done here, it just takes personnel, the big issue is getting lots of good help is harder and harder to find, everyone gets burned out from busting a$$ and overworked. Having paper up close and using steel for distance has pretty much eliminated the need for some basic rifle skills that really should be tested, and that is why I moved some of the paper further back on many of the stages at P.A. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe P Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Could someone give me the contact information for the person in charge of shipping firearms won at the Pro/Am? I gave the contract info to my FFL and I think they lost it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I sent an email to Linda withdrawing from this match 7/10/13 she responded by email letting me know she was forwarding my request to the person in charge of refunds. I sent her a follow up email 9/10/13. I contacted the match director on 9/17/13 who promptly replied with a direct # for me to contact the person handling refunds. On 9/18/13 I called this person and was informed I would be on the top of there list for refunds. Today is 10/03/13 I have yet to see a check or any communication of any kind. Does anyone have another channel of recourse I might try. Suggestions ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jacket Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 My thoughts on the Pro/Am. I shot AM this year, had a great time and this year ran much smoother than last even with the Thunderstorm. 1) I would prefer not to shoot Thurs-Sun. As others indicated that's an extra day of hotel and vacation. However, I wouldn't mind finishing up on Sunday assuming I would be on the road by 2:00 ish 2) Have you considered going to a half day format. Shoot 1/2 day Friday and 1/2 Saturday? Have AM and PM groups like FNH. That would allow more time to hit side matches and do other things in the area. 3) I think the longest rifle shot we had was 200 yds. I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 300-350 yard shots. I am not a good LR shooter, but had a blast shooting the JP side match. 4) Have one stage with a couple of slug targets 5) I liked the fact that you gave options for shooting the stage. Let the shooter decide if they wanted to use a rifle or pistol to engage a target. 6) On the prize table since it is random draw division shouldn't matter. I don't think you need a table for Tac optics and open. Just put everone in the same bucket and draw. Also, for the division winners I would give them an award for winning, but I don't think they should walk the prize table first. I would put them in the random draw like everyone else to select a prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 My thoughts on the Pro/Am. I shot AM this year, had a great time and this year ran much smoother than last even with the Thunderstorm. 1) I would prefer not to shoot Thurs-Sun. As others indicated that's an extra day of hotel and vacation. However, I wouldn't mind finishing up on Sunday assuming I would be on the road by 2:00 ish 2) Have you considered going to a half day format. Shoot 1/2 day Friday and 1/2 Saturday? Have AM and PM groups like FNH. That would allow more time to hit side matches and do other things in the area. 3) I think the longest rifle shot we had was 200 yds. I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 300-350 yard shots. I am not a good LR shooter, but had a blast shooting the JP side match. 4) Have one stage with a couple of slug targets 5) I liked the fact that you gave options for shooting the stage. Let the shooter decide if they wanted to use a rifle or pistol to engage a target. 6) On the prize table since it is random draw division shouldn't matter. I don't think you need a table for Tac optics and open. Just put everone in the same bucket and draw. Also, for the division winners I would give them an award for winning, but I don't think they should walk the prize table first. I would put them in the random draw like everyone else to select a prize. The Pro side had rifle targets out past 300 yards. They tend to keep the AM side a little easier because SOME AM shooters have all they can do to hit targets at 100 yards, due to lack of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 As a MD for another ky match with a prize table, granted much more petite but still awesome in my opinion. Why is there even a fuss about how the prize table is run? There doesn't have to be one. Somebody worked their butt off to hound manufactures to get the gear that was there and there was a lot. If you think you got screwed on the random draw shoot pro. If you think the open guys got YOUR gear on pro shoot better and earn it. You could always volunteer to work the phone all year making the calls that got you the prizes to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWelborn Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Could someone give me the contact information for the person in charge of shipping firearms won at the Pro/Am? I gave the contract info to my FFL and I think they lost it. Thanks. Joe Did you get the contact info you needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe P Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yes I did, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Do we have a date for next year yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWelborn Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 The match will again be the 4th weekend in Aug (8/22-24/14). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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