3nd Annual AR15.com Rockcastle Pro Am 3 Gun Championships

[hotwiredtn]

What a match ! I had a great time ! I am still recovering ! Does anyone know who has the group picture on the rock from the late night cave trip ? (If you where there you know what i'm talking about) It was great seeing everyone and meeting new people ! Great getting to see how everyone ran Pro stage 4. Sorry for those who got stung we tried to keep the hornets out !

[JeremyM]

Outstanding match and experience! My hats off to all that made it happen.

[Zukeep]

Great match!! again. This was my third. Squeezed out a 32nd place finish in AM. Here are the 5 stages I got on video. See ya next year!!

[Cheytac]

Thankful to have been able to attend my 2nd match at the Rock. I can't say thank you enough for the people who give so much of their time to make this happen. The Nobles, Gary, Traper, Linda, the ROs, Sponsors, and everyone else that I don't know. Thank you.

I was able to be on a great squad and meet some wonderful people. I was also lucky enough to run into shooters that were on my squad last year, good to see them also.

Only downside to the match is that I lost my pocket knife. If anyone finds a silver SOG Twitch II on Pro #5, its mine. I'd be happy to pay the postage to get it back to me if you find it...

Looking forward to nets year's match...

[Ryan N]

Here's my effort that was good enough to get me the 3rd place AM slot. I felt that I shot pretty well until I watched the video. I think the 5 second penalty for a miss had me spooked. I can see myself looking for hits instead of trusting my sights. I am still very happy with how I placed. I also had a great time shooting with our squad of RO's.

[Tacticalk9]

Here's my effort that was good enough to get me the 3rd place AM slot. I felt that I shot pretty well until I watched the video. I think the 5 second penalty for a miss had me spooked. I can see myself looking for hits instead of trusting my sights. I am still very happy with how I placed. I also had a great time shooting with our squad of RO's.

Nice Going! I would have been right up there with you top ten guys if I didnt forget targets on stage 4 and 6 LOL

[Ryan N]

Nice Going! I would have been right up there with you top ten guys if I didnt forget targets on stage 4 and 6 LOL

Eeek, that is a killer. My only miss was a target that I actually shot at (at close range) with a pistol on stage 2. lol.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Ryan N

[Mberry]

I had a great time and was really impressed with all the RO's and sponsor support. It was definitely a social event just as much as it was a competition! A big thanks to all my squad mates who gave advice and moral support when I had some very costly misses...

To the folks from Buds Guns- you guys were awesome. It was a ton of fun shooting with you and hanging out after hours! Thanks for supporting the charity with the proceeds from your side match, very cool of you.

I think I may have to apply for a position as the Bushmaster 3-Gun team mascot, you guys are always super helpful. Much appreciated. I'll bring some kettle bells for Ravin and Karla next match too, with the 1/2 day format we should be able to get a good workout in! See you all at the FNH match in a few weeks.

Here's my video from the match:

[Tacticalk9]

I had a great time and was really impressed with all the RO's and sponsor support. It was definitely a social event just as much as it was a competition! A big thanks to all my squad mates who gave advice and moral support when I had some very costly misses...

To the folks from Buds Guns- you guys were awesome. It was a ton of fun shooting with you and hanging out after hours! Thanks for supporting the charity with the proceeds from your side match, very cool of you.

I think I may have to apply for a position as the Bushmaster 3-Gun team mascot, you guys are always super helpful. Much appreciated. I'll bring some kettle bells for Ravin and Karla next match too, with the 1/2 day format we should be able to get a good workout in! See you all at the FNH match in a few weeks.

Here's my video from the match:

Nice runs! If youre anything like me, you cant let the little foobars go lol. I know ill be analyzing my performance in this match for weeks to come.

Did I mention I left my rifle on AM stage 4 friday night? lol Gary and the match staff had a heyday with me over that one

Edited September 1, 2013 by Tacticalk9

[GWelborn]

I was at the Rock Monday and there are still a few items left in lost & found. I turned in a nice sling Monday that was left in my truck. If you are shooting the Blue Ridge or the 3GN International MG check at the desk for your items.

Thanks to all for the many good comments and suggestions. We are already working on next year.

[Mark R]

I was at the Rock Monday and there are still a few items left in lost & found. I turned in a nice sling Monday that was left in my truck. If you are shooting the Blue Ridge or the 3GN International MG check at the desk for your items.

Thanks to all for the many good comments and suggestions. We are already working on next year.

Awesome Gary...count me in again to RO...four in a row!

[GWelborn]

Mark thanks, we are kicking around new ideas for next year, Perhaps expanding the AM match to three days, eight stages, and additional slots, The PRO match could be Thur Fri Sat and the AM match Fri Sat Sun, What do you think?

Anyone else have a thought?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Mark thanks, we are kicking around new ideas for next year, Perhaps expanding the AM match to three days, eight stages, and additional slots, The PRO match could be Thur Fri Sat and the AM match Fri Sat Sun, What do you think?

Anyone else have a thought?

Not a fan of Thurs-Sat shooting. Costs an additional day off work when Sunday ends relatively early as it is. For myself, I would have to think hard about it and determine if being in my office 2 days instead of 3 was worth it. Depending on the day, it could cost me $1000-3000 difference as a small business owner since my office shuts down when I'm not there.

[sb3]

My 2¢ worth... I did not shoot AM but I am an open shooter so I would love to see more guys shoot open. Seeing the way the prize table was run for the AM's it seems like a good way to kill off the open division at the grassroots level. If the table went by placing then I could definitely see having a separate table for open and tac optics, but as it is a random draw it seems like the Am open shooters were punished for shooting open. If it's a random draw, why split the divisions? Am I missing something here? It's not like they had an advantage over the tac Ops guys in a random draw. They paid the same entry, they shot the same stages but they don't get the same chance at a big prize table. Now I certainly don't want to seem hostile here, I had a great time and I think you guys run a great match, I just want to stick up for the new open shooters who will hopefully be the future of the open division. My prediction is if it continues this way amateur open is dead. As far as shooting on Thursday goes, I don't care what days we shoot as long as it's 70° and sunny (insert wishful thinking here)

[blu46and2]

Mark thanks, we are kicking around new ideas for next year, Perhaps expanding the AM match to three days, eight stages, and additional slots, The PRO match could be Thur Fri Sat and the AM match Fri Sat Sun, What do you think?

Anyone else have a thought?

Great match, I really enjoyed all the stages, the match staff, location, etc.. I shot the Pro match this year and I think we shot 4 stages on Friday, 3 stages on Saturday and 1 stage on Sunday...on Saturday we had plenty of daylight left that we could have shot that last stage. To the above posters point, Thu-Sat would be adding an additional day of travel and all the related expenses. I would suggest that you leave it the way it is and let the Pro shooters finish up on Saturday and, I don't know if this is logistically possible but do the prizes on Sunday for both Pro and Am.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Mark thanks, we are kicking around new ideas for next year, Perhaps expanding the AM match to three days, eight stages, and additional slots, The PRO match could be Thur Fri Sat and the AM match Fri Sat Sun, What do you think?

Anyone else have a thought?

Great match, I really enjoyed all the stages, the match staff, location, etc.. I shot the Pro match this year and I think we shot 4 stages on Friday, 3 stages on Saturday and 1 stage on Sunday...on Saturday we had plenty of daylight left that we could have shot that last stage. To the above posters point, Thu-Sat would be adding an additional day of travel and all the related expenses. I would suggest that you leave it the way it is and let the Pro shooters finish up on Saturday and, I don't know if this is logistically possible but do the prizes on Sunday for both Pro and Am.

Best idea I've heard yet! If it's possible to shoot everything in two days, lets do it. I have no problem putting two hard days in, then having a leisurely and early Sunday to finish things up.

As an added bonus, if Linda Chico wanted to work hard Saturday night, little to no work for her Sunday and we could all check and verify stores while taking in cold beverages with complete disregard for a potential make that LIKELY hangover on Sunday!

[prreed10]

Great ideas! Do the AM table early Sunday morning and the Pro around 12.

I'd personally like to see 10 stages total and everyone shoot the same stages with PRO/AM be a division in scoring. Logistically, running that many shooters through the same 10 stages may be tough though. It would cut down on setup as you would only have 10 stages to setup vs 15.

[bigbrowndog]

more stages means more RO's and more targets, considering how tight things were this year I'd say it would just be extra stress on the match staff. However if it was decided to do it that way, then way more consideration needs to be given to the stage layout, regarding where stages are put, no more driving 15 minutes to get to your next stage, or placing stages in the same locations as this year, there are some areas that really should not be used for Pro Am, and other areas that could be used more.

Clustering them in three locations so that everyone stays in the same general location each day for those stages and then rotates out on the next day to a new location will eliminate delays caused by travel, stage shut downs due to RM duties, it would also mean we might need to go to 3 RM's for each area, to eliminate delays in getting the RM there to address issues with shooters. Much smarter use of the land could eliminate much of the delays, that occured this year and in years past.

Trapr

[Tim/GA]

Shooting 3 days is really an issue for many of us. As is, to shoot the AM match I have to take 2 days off (I am lucky they let me do that as a high school teacher at the start of school) to get there, shoot 2 days and get home. I would shoot Pro, but an extra day is out of the question (and then it is for 1 stage anyway).

The expansion of many of the 3 gun matches to 3 days of shooting really limits many of us who cannot swing the extra days and costs to shoot three 1/2 or full days. I am all for keeping the days of shooting the same- if we added a stage to the AM match I could see that but on the 2 days already being shot.

With all of that said, THANKS for a great match. My 3rd one and each one has had its own feel for the stages and the vendors and all this year were the best yet.

[Chuck Anderson]

I totally get the three day match. Trying to cram it all in over two days is great. Until something goes wrong. Like a couple more of the thunder showers we had on the first day. Add in a couple more hours of guys to wuss to run around holding long metal rods in lightning and Sunday is not a luxury, it's a necessity. If the plan was everybody is gone or done Saturday it makes for some expensive scrambling to change flights.

[Mark R]

Not sure how to make it happen, but more parking would be nice. Some of the RO's who worked the entire day(s) came back to the Rock only to find no parking.

And I like Trapr's idea of co-locating stages in 2 or 3 groups. Shoot 1 day in one location, next day the other.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Mark R

[ROCKCASTLE1]

My 2¢ worth... I did not shoot AM but I am an open shooter so I would love to see more guys shoot open. Seeing the way the prize table was run for the AM's it seems like a good way to kill off the open division at the grassroots level. If the table went by placing then I could definitely see having a separate table for open and tac optics, but as it is a random draw it seems like the Am open shooters were punished for shooting open. If it's a random draw, why split the divisions? Am I missing something here? It's not like they had an advantage over the tac Ops guys in a random draw. They paid the same entry, they shot the same stages but they don't get the same chance at a big prize table. Now I certainly don't want to seem hostile here, I had a great time and I think you guys run a great match, I just want to stick up for the new open shooters who will hopefully be the future of the open division. My prediction is if it continues this way amateur open is dead. As far as shooting on Thursday goes, I don't care what days we shoot as long as it's 70° and sunny (insert wishful thinking here)

I think we may have talked briefly during the prize table. I'm sure there are several different opinions on prize table distribution, and we do not claim to have the perfect answer, but we learned from the best. The prize table management is almost harder than running the rest of the match put together.

The first break in your argument, is that most 3 gun prize tables are run in similar fashion, that is that they split between categories, most with 4, ours only has two. If it was a "grassroots" killer, than the open division would have been long gone from every match.

I think what you may be missing is how the prizes are distributed between categories. Most prize tables, including ours, distribute the prize table on percentages. If there are 24 open shooters and 226 Tac Ops shooters, the Open makes up 9.6% of the field. Let's just call it 10% like we did. If there are 40 guns on the prize table for all of AM, 10% go to the open table. If there are 100 hats for all of AM, 10 hats go to the open table. Same goes for optics, mags, Tactical Bacon, etc. By percentage, the open shooters have just as good of a chance to get a gun as the Tac Ops shooters. What you see as punishment, can also be seen as fairness. Just as a hypothetical, if it more or less fair that a last place Open shooter that didn't hit any targets, gets the same percentage chance to win a gun as the Tac Ops shooter that beat 80% of his peers with a #180 finish, 44 places out of first?

There are other ways to look at it as well. The shooter bags represented a retail value almost equal to the AM entry fee, and then the 24th picked open shooter got some great sponsor provided product. Or then there's always the ability to just shoot the Pro Side, and let the brass fall where it may. It's broken down on the same type of percentage, but then it also matters how well you finished. We try to make it a great experience for all, and we are more than willing to hear any suggestions.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

For the Pro side at least, I think you guys had the prize table spot on! Knowing the AM side had random draw prizes and that there would be no 3GN Semi-pro points awarded for the AM match, I decided to go for the Pro route and came in around 77th or so.

At matches last year, I felt I was getting "hosed" for shooting Tac-Irons or Heavy optics, so I switched to TacOps (I don't want to consider investing the money for open gear after the amount my current gear costs!). I quickly figured out that it depends on how you finish within your division AND how many people shoot in your division. At matches with more divisions, if you have a massive turnout for TacOps and scoring is very tight, you may take 50th and walk away with less of a prize than if you shot TacIrons with a good turnout of mediocre shooters. You may also shoot TacIrons and take a top ten spot out of a small pool of 15-20 great shooters and end up with a gift bag and some oil, while your same times in TacOps would have put you around 30th out of 150+ and you might have taken a gun or upper home worth 3-5 times your entry fee. If you're a top competitor with a good chance of taking 1st or 2nd place, you can pick about any division and be happy with what you got. If you are someone like me, and you are worried about prizes....going with a division that has 8 shooters and taking 4th, there will be a decent $ difference from the prize for 3rd to the prize for 4th just like there would be for the jump from 37th to 50th in a class with 100 people. If you are a shooter like me, your best bet is to shoot TacOps. If you aren't worried about prizes, shoot any division you like and realize that you will have a big jump from position to position.

Give you an idea of prizes and what I learned....

7th out of 8 in HTO at MW3G in 2012. ....GC for XS sights, hat, oil, shirt <------shot expensive .45 and .308 rounds, learned a pump wasn't required for HTO by mistake ....next to last or last in division

11th out of ?? in TacIron at Ozarks in 2012 ....nice aluminum ammo box, oil, shirt, hat <------shot well at some stages, not a ton of people in my division, but more than HTO ...top half of the division I think

11th out of 21 in HTO at Fallen Brethren in 2012 ...Surefire 60rd mag, GC for XS sights, bag, hats, shirts, oil, stickers,... <----shot well and bad on stages, BIG prize table filled the gap. ....below half of the division

26th out of ??? in TacOps at MW3G in 2013 ...GC for nice Seekins rail plus plenty of other goodies <----made mistakes, a few good stages .......around top 17-18% in division

77th out of a ton in TacOps at Pro-Am in 2013 ...GC for SILENCER, shirt, mags,...... <-----major blunders on 3 stages, one great stage, a few decent stages, a couple no shoots died......best prize yet at around 30% of the division

It's the luck of the draw when you enter a division other than TacOps......there are either a bunch of people there to draw more prizes towards it, or there isn't. I wouldn't expect the MD's to automatically throw more prize money towards Open or Heavy divisions because their guns or ammo cost more.

[Mike P]

The number of shooters was IMO pretty much maxed out this year. I don't see how one could realistically expect to process more through the current facility in two days. Adding another day is not going to help with the parking situation either. If a day is added to the format, let it be to stretch out some of the stages and up the ante on shooting challenges. (longer more complex challenges along with longer reset times)

The prize table and distribution do not need any changes IMO and if someone wants a better shot at a better prize then let them compete in pro and earn it.

[ClutchUSMC]

A few things I would like...

1. More shotgun

2. Get the local band, rotc, 4h shooting team, boy scouts, etc. Out to set and paste. Bump the match fee $25 and give it to them. They make $12500 for their cause, the shooters have a little extra help, and the stages run faster. The 4Her's who helped a few years ago were great. I would let them scrounge the dump barrels and ground for shotgun shells and then get the guy with the sagia/xrail/akdal super cool open gun to let them shoot some steel with it in between shooters.

3. Crazy Quail side match

4. Harder, more technical stages. I've worked this match several years and I understand how important it is to turn squads on time, but the level of difficulty in the pro match needs to get turned up some. This year we had no cars to negotiate, no half scale swingers, no slugs, no offhand rifle of any distance, no texas stars, no spinners, etc. A few 100rd rifle targets that are only visible from a high port, or a 50 yd pistol gong, or some 70 yard slugs would be great!

It's still my favorite match of the year and the one I look forward too most! See you guys next year.