Should our club...

[Wakal]

The REAL Texas Star was designed, prototyped, and built in San Angelo years ago. The San Angelo Club still has Star #1, FWIW

In the interest of full disclosure, my father (the sick puppy that he is) purchased the very first commercially available Texas Star (#2).

The SA club has two Stars, as well as access to all of Terry and Linda's "loaner" Stars.

Despite all that, we set up a Star at most, two or three times a year (although we did prototype some new hubs, and two matches ago ran one stage with four Stars...a 2 arm, 3 arm, 4 arm, and a standard 5 arm). We learned that Stars are just a mental game! If you tell yourself that you can't shoot 'em...guess what, hot shot, you can't shoot 'em. Just that simple. Like anything else, repetition breeds boredom.

As far as "consistant starts" go...use Terry's REAL Texas Star or Mike's MGM rifle-grade Star. Both have matched plates (weighed and matched, as Terry's, or VERY nicely cut plates as Mikes). Using any fake "Star-Shaped Target Array" without balanced plates and you are asking for a bucket of problems. With balanced plates, the Star will "rest" in the same place each and every time. How the plates fall is the shooter's problem, and (as noted above) any change in the rotation speed is the same as horribly inconsistant swingers (FWIW, SAGC has 21 identical swingers, all built to the same standard on the very same jig by the very same group of weirdos....and each swinger is a little different. Just one of those things...which is why changing a swinger means a reshoot for anyone who shot it with the original parts ).

IIRC, Amidon said that a Star is not a target array. The target array is five plates, and the Star is just what holds them.

Don't let the poor wee beastie (the Star, not Amidon ) geek you out. It is just five steel plates.

Alex

[George]

I think of them as a gimmick and even though I have not had problems the few times I have encountered them, I think they do not present a repeatable engagement experience from shooter to shooter and as such they belong in carnival shooting arcades, not IPSC competition.

TX * = gimcrackery fer sure!

--

Regards,

[John Dunn]

The Pueblo reload! LOL! Was that messed up or what? I think I put the mag in the mag pouch backwards, but however it got that way, I made a valiant effort to cram that mag in the gun backwards. Don't try this at home.

[dajarrel]

I have had good shoots on the star and I have had BAD shoots on the star. But like a previous poster noted, " it's just 5 plates"

Most likely, anyone who has problems with plate and movers will have problems with the star. That's why I try to shoot both of them more often. Doesn't always seem to help, but I can say that I practiced it.

Our club is fortunate. One of our members went to a match where one was and was so impressed/depressed by them that he bought TWO for the club. We shoot them just about every match.

just my $.02 worth

dj

[Dead Buff]

The Pueblo reload! LOL! Was that messed up or what? I think I put the mag in the mag pouch backwards, but however it got that way, I made a valiant effort to cram that mag in the gun backwards. Don't try this at home.

I think we should see this!!!!

-----------------------------------

The star to me is a nice-to-have toy that makes money during fun/open days and could be nice to hone skills on...in a match - no thanx...see all the above reasons

[9x23]

My opinion, FWIW. It's just another skill set I need to practice. At best I'm probably average at shooting it. I realize it might not be 100% consistant from shooter to shooter, but if I develope my skill on it hopefully any inconsistancies wouldn't be the deciding factor in my placement in a match. The other mistakes through the course of a whole match would probably be more effective towards my score (or lack of) than the differences if the set up is managed correctly.

I want to ask another question about the *. so I'll start a new thread as not to hijack this one. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=16475&hl=

9x

[TRNinTX]

The problem is it is nothing like other activated targets such as drop turners and swingers. Those are previewed in the walk through. Every texas star I have shot moves at a different speed than the one I shot before.

Anyway you look at it, it can't possibly be consistant for everyone.

Jake,

I don't buy that theory.

How many times do you see an activator fall in the walk through at the same speed it does when shot? The RO will knock it down and the timing is nowhere near the same. First shooter goes bang and is waiting on the target to acitvate. Next shooter goes bang, shoots two static targets then comes back to the activated target because he saw the true speed of activation.

The Star will not be the same for every shooter, unless every shooter takes the same plate first. All statics don't present the same view in a big field course if they can be taken from different places. Tall shooter might be able to take them over vision barriers (i.e. the Fence Row stage at A5) and shorter shooters have to move to a different spot. It's all part of the shooting problem to solve.

[Jake Di Vita]

Actually the only time in my memory that prop did that was the clown stage at the Tri state...and that was because it was a pneumatic target.

Regular props like that aren't set exactly the same everytime. However the difference in most of those is negligable at best.

Heres one example why it is unfair. At a match I shot the star first. After I shot it, it was oiled. The next shooter shot it and it way going like a bat out of hell. That had been going on all day.

[Wakal]

Jake, now the truth comes out. You would have had a whole lot more support up front if you had posted the real story.

Oiling a Star during a course of fire is JACKED UP. Unless it is oiled before each shooter, and even then...that clearly presents a different shooting experience for each shooter, depending on when and how much it was oiled.

Star = not bad, just five shooter-designated targets on a moving stand

Randomly Oiled Star = inconsistant

Alex

[Jim Norman]

It has been said that the "Texas Star" should be outlawed I assume for all the reasons that others have stated regarding lack of consistent activation and the fact that they will drift if left in the static position prior to engagement. We have one and we use it on occasion. As a rule we start it with a weight and a popper or other activation method. True it can be a difficult target. Do we ban other difficult targets? If I am slower than you and I activate a swinger at a different time, you and I will not have the same presentation. Same for bobblers, out and backs and any other mover. Using this logic, swingers, windmills and bobblers should also be outlawed. They move, we shoot them, some of us do better than others. That is the game.

The Star is not all that difficult, certainly no more difficult than a swinger or a drop turner. Admittedly it will change direction, so you have to see faster with it than you do with other more predictable movers, but if it is started in the same manner for everyone, then the initial presentation is the same. Exactly the same situation we have with other movers. Once the mover has started is when the presentation changes.

Take a swinger, If I am fast enough to get two hits on one swing, then I can move on, if I have to wait through three or more swings to get my hits, that is my problem. Same for the Star. I have cleaned it and I have chased it. It certainly will separate the shooters from those that merely pull the trigger.

I say it is a good prop and if not over used, it is an excellent addition to the inventory. Same as any other prop, don't use them every match in the same way.

One argument is that smaller clubs or clubs with tight budgets don't have a Star. OK, by that logic we need to survey all the clubs and only use targets that are available to all the shooters at all the clubs. My club doesn't have a Brand Y Clamshell, you can't use it at a match above Club level, Heck we don't own a Windmill, how many clubs do? But we are going to see a couple at the Nationals. Unfair!!!! Wah!!! To paraphrase a certain talkshow host(ess) 'Shut up and Shoot! As long as the initial position is the same for everyone, it is fair. I get to practice certain arrays and presentations but not others, same applies to most everyone. One reason I like the different target systems is because it gives me ideas for new stage designs or target presentations at my home club. Imagine how boring it would be if we all only shot the same arrays that the smallest least well funded club could set up? It would look like a bullseye match using cardboard targets.

Jim Norman

[TRNinTX]

Here, Here Jim

[blackdragon]

Absolutly Jim,

Used in moderation they are way fun! In regards to the no shoots behind the * been there and shot that. It realy gets the adrenalin flowing as well as a butchering of the english language!

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[BDH]

Heres one example why it is unfair. At a match I shot the star first. After I shot it, it was oiled. The next shooter shot it and it way going like a bat out of hell. That had been going on all day.

Jake,

Your points are valid, but I tend to agree with TRNinVA that other movers (especially drop turners) don't always behave 100% consistently either.

In your example above on the star being oiled, that sounds more like a problem with inexperienced range staff, than with the star. At most big matches the range staff always reset any moving props to insure that they are as consistent as possible. Also, we do lube props that require it, but are consistent about when we lube. A good example is my stage next week. It has a double sliding target array that disappears. The rollers will get a shot of lube before each squad. Will that make it unfair for the first person to shoot it? Nope. It will run consistently as long as I keep the rollers lubed up. What would be a problem would be not doing anything to it, as I am pretty sure that it would not run at the same speed on Day five as it did on Day one, without keeping it lubed.

Of course, we all want to keep everything as consistent as possible, but even if we only used static targets, some may shoot them in sun.... some may shoot them in overcast or fog.... and some may shoot them in rain with bagged targets. Clearly not the exact same challenge, but we just have to deal with it.

BTW, I HATE the damn TX stars too....

[Jake Di Vita]

I see and understand all your points.

In all honestly, I love shooting the star, I think it's a great challenge and very fun. I don't really have a problem with them in big matches either. I just don't see their place there the vast majority of the time.

The star at the Buckeye Blast was probably the fastest moving star I've seen and I didn't mind it at all.

Let me rephrase my previous comments. As long as they are taken care of by competent people, go ahead, just don't go overboard on it.

[Paul B]

The thing that makes our kind of shooting interesting is the ingenious moving props that have ben incorporated into our stages. I'm all for any of these props that come along as long as they work consistently and don't effect the score of the shooter more than the shooters own skill.

If the famous tri state clown stage had windows that opened for 2.5 seconds for 1 shooter and 3.5 seconds for another, I think that is a problem. That is the real challenge to those who run these types of stages at a major match.

The same thing applies when a cable from a popper stretches to the point that there is a visible difference in the time to activation. I've seen and given re-shoots when this occurs.

With a texas star, it is very hard to get a consistent result even if the plates are shot in the same order so it is not just like 5 plates in a line. Once again, start it spinning at a specific speed and I'm there.

Practice - yes, club matches - maybe, major matches - no.

[Ron Ankeny]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. I suppose we need to buy a Tex* if for no other reason than to give our guys experience with one in case they encounter the prop while on the road.

I am not a good field course shooter, but put me in one spot, add some steel, and I'll do fine. The concern I really have over the Tex* is how punitive it can be for the less experienced shooters. In the case of a drop turner, the shooter is either quick enough to hit the target or he isn't. In the case of a swinger, if the shooter misses, the shots become easier as the prop slows down. In the case of the star, if the shooter sucks, the shots become more difficult.

Take the case of Mr. GM. He cleans the plates from a star before it even twitches. Along comes 13 year old Little Johnny D class Jr. and he whacks away at the plates for an eternity then leaves feeling like crap. An analogy with static plates would go like this. Mr. GM comes to the line and the RO tells him, "Mr. GM you are fast. You get to shoot five plates off of the 10 yard rack. If you miss one, you have to shoot a plate off of the 15 yard rack". Mr. GM isn't even concerned. Along comes D class Junior and the RO tells him, "Sorry Little Johnny, but you suck and we are going to prove it. You are so slow you only get to shoot one plate from the 10 yard rack, then you shoot 1 from the 15 yard rack, then you shoot 3 more from the 25 yard rack." From an assessment perspective, we are asking Junior to perform a task that he can not perform initially and in return we make the task increasingly difficult. I think that's why people either love the Star or hate it. They can shoot it fast or they can not.

[dajarrel]

Ron,

Let my give an analogy. I really hate them but I think I can explain myself with one.

Junior watches his favorite homerun slugger get up and knock his homeruns out of the park. He wants to hit home runs too so what does he do? He practices, hopefully under the guidance of a decent coach. That coach will help him to develop his skills to the best of Juniors ability.

I think that our game is much the same. We have new shooters and junior shooters who want to mow down that star just like he saw his local hero or GM do. In order for him to do so, he must practice, once again under the guidance of more experience shooters.

The whole idea here is that we must encourage and coach the new and young shooters. That way, some day they will want to do the same.

OBTW, When Junior is watching his HR hitter, he sees him strike out alot. If he watches many folks shoot the star, he will see alot of strikeouts there as well....From GM to D class.

Just my take on it and FWIW, I don't ever recall cleaning a star in five shots. I talk bad about it's ancestry while I shoot (at) it.

dj

[Ron Ankeny]

dj:

Thanks. I had never thought about it from that angle. FWIW, I have only shot the star 4 times, all of them were in a match. Not a problem.

[old shooter]

Ron,

I say go ahead and get one. You will remember the times you dumped all 5 plates with 5 shots, and quickly forget the times it took a reload to get them all....

Mike

[rhino]

As bad as Junior might feel if he can't hit all the plates on the star, think how good he will feel about himself when he CAN do it!

[shred]

As bad as Junior might feel if he can't hit all the plates on the star, think how good he will feel about himself when he CAN do it!

...assuming he comes back at all..

We somewhat frequently have to tell new shooters "Quit shooting at it and move on". They'll sit there alll day and try to hit the last swinging plate. Ron's got it right-- the slower you are, the harder it is to shoot, thus it should not be used to excess.

[joseywales]

Wow, guess we have a few opinions on this prop! Good reading.

A little over 2 years ago, I got my first look at the Texas Star(s) in a 'big' match.

Having only shot a few IPSC matches by that time (a 44 yr old "junior shooter"), I had no clue "how" to shoot it. When I asked one of the more 'senior' shooters how to approach it, he looked at the 4 mags on my belt and said, in a somewhat dry humorous tone,..."have you got more bullets...you need more bullets...go back to your car and get...".

The stage required the shooter to engage TWO T*'s that had a 1-plate overlap and each star rotated in opposite directions (as I recall), followed by a 2 armed "hammer" (2 plate star?). It was nasty...I think it was a 60-90 second run.

I cursed. Then cursed some more. Then wanted to know who would design such a tool (he was keeping score/RO'ing the stage...big smile on his face!).

Wakal is right, it's just 5 plates. Learn the right approach to shooting this thing and maybe you'll find that it's one of most fun props around to shoot. Major match, club match...it's just another shooting challenge and opportunity to have fun.

[sargenv]

I dunno.. I don't really have any issues shooting a stationary star or even a moving one.. but then my background from way back in moving targets, so I don't think anything of them. Sometimes I have a wee bit of trouble with them, but the last match I shot with one in it, I was shooting a production 9mm LDA.. 5 shots, 5 hits.. no problem I'm unclassified in Production but a mid B Limited shooter.

Vince

[Liota]

Ron,

I respectfully disagree with you about the lower class shooters doing lousy on the star. I've seen all classes have good and bad days with the star. It depends on a lot of variables with the shooter. The star has proven itself consistent. 99% of the variables are with the shooter. Is he having a good day? Is he having a good match? Is he feeling well? (This one bit me square in the butt at the TX State Limited) Is his equipment functional? Which plate did he hit first? Did he miss the second plate? These are all things the shooter controls and have nothing to do with the prop.

Steve Speer,

I didn't realize the first stars you shot were at the 2002 Carter Martin Classic. That was a truly cool stage. Yes, Terry is psychotic.

Liota

[Flexmoney]

As with all things...know your customers and ensure the prop functions.

hey...what about this...could you set the star up so that you only used two plates? Putting them in series would mean they would be on the bottom..not too much swinging.

Might be a way to "build up" to the new challenge?