Who can call a DQ?

[Norther]

This question has come up a couple of times, and I can't seem to find it in the rules or on this forum. Our local club has to shoot on one bay (indoors in the winter). We set up two stages side by side, form two squads, shoot one squad then the other, then go score both stages. So, there are several ROs (other squad) standing around watching whoever is shooting at the time. Sometimes the shooter does something that the acting ROs miss. Can a spectator RO call a DQ? What if the spectator is the match director?

Seems to me the MD should be able to, but not just any spectator who happens to be RO certified, even if they are acting RO for the other squad. What do you think?

[Got Juice?]

Only the RO, and corner markers (if there are any posted watching for 180 breaks) can.

Stage officials only. (as shown on the 'work list' and credentials listed)

Appeals for the DQ are handled (if any) to the CRO, then MD.

I remember at our level1 course as it was taught, and I quote "If you are 99 percent sure the shooter has disqualified themselves... Then you are not sure. You must be 100% absolute and positive, or you cannot in good conscience stop the shooter"

Words to live by.

I had a shooter this year shaking his gun (stovepipe and a stuck mag) to try to get tge mag to drop. At my angle he was ok.... I was only 75% sure he almost broke 180.... Then the corner official said 'STOP' ULASC.

As the main RO I supported the corner worker as he had the best view.

It's all about safety. Remember, an RO doesn't DQ a shooter, the shooter does. All an RO does is record the incident of a safety violation.

His first duty is for everyone's safety. Second is to be fair to all competitors and make sure each competitor has a fair shake at the stage.

One match I almost DQ'd a spectator (also a shooter) for unsportsmanlike conduct. He was talking too loud and was distracting me as I was trying to run a squad through. I gave one warning and that was enough.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Got Juice?

[kevin c]

Don't have my rulebook handy, but I'm pretty sure any RO working in an official capacity can make such a call anywhere on the range. My personal approach though, is to assume that the RO's running the shooter have the best vantage point on determining a possible infraction, being a whole lot closer to the action, so, unless it's a blatant violation done when/where the RO's in charge clearly couldn't see, I keep my mouth shut. I might, after the shooter is done, mention something to the RO, if it looks like a situation that could come up again (RO blind spot, for instance). I might mention something to the shooter in a nonaccusatory way ("real easy to get on the 180 over there - from where I was, you were pretty close") [i've had people tell me that before, and I appreciate the information].

[Sarge]

Under ideal circumstances DQ's should be administered by acting RO's only. Not every RO/CRO in the peanut gallery. The crew running the shooter needs to see the infraction in my opinion.

BUT since becoming MD for our club matches I have broken my own rule once. I was watching one of my newer RO's run a shooter and he missed a blatant call when a shooter broke the 180 by A LOT. I was on a stage that was in between shooters and I yelled "STOP" so loud everybody turned to look. I walked over to the stage and DQ'd the shooter. I feel since my name is on the blame block as MD I am obligated, therefore permitted, to make calls when not an acting RO.

[walter hornby]

I am not 100% up on my USPSA rules but i am sure that it is like IPSC and that the MD is not a Match Official. Once the match starts it is the RM's responsibility to look after RO's. However at a league match night the MD is usually also the RM, Mr. Fix it and a RO! While only the Ro/CRO working the stage should call a DQ any match official can call a DQ. of course on a league match nights these lines get pretty obscured so perhaps a house rule needs to be implemented on who can call DQs.

[MarkCO]

By the rules, RO, CRO, CO, RM and DNROI have the granted authority to issue a DQ. Stats, Quartermasters and MDs do not have that authority granted by the rules. If not present when it occurs, the RM must be made aware of all DQs issued. The CO, by definition is also defined as the CRO of the Chrono-Stage. The RM nor the MD can nulify a properly issued DQ.

10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident,on the competitor’s score sheet, and the Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

[remoandiris]

The RO holding the timer and/or the RO holding the clipboard on the specific stage. The peanut gallery has nothing to do with it.

[Flexmoney]

Those that are officiating that particular match can make calls. (RO's, CRO's, RM)

[sperman]

I think there may be more topics on this subject, but I found these:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47113&hl=%2Bdq

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87229&hl=%2Bdq

[Norther]

I was watching one of my newer RO's run a shooter and he missed a blatant call when a shooter broke the 180 by A LOT. I was on a stage that was in between shooters and I yelled "STOP" so loud everybody turned to look. I walked over to the stage and DQ'd the shooter. I feel since my name is on the blame block as MD I am obligated, therefore permitted, to make calls when not an acting RO.

This stuation exactly.

I am the new match director of our small local club. We don't really have a formal range master, but I and the club president kind of share those duties as well as those of RO. (I see we need to address this lack of a designated RM) We have no one CRO certified, but about ten of us are RO certified. We generally have around 25 shooters in a small indoor range (wintertime Alaska). The peanut gallery is very close because of the confines of the range, and since the ROs are shooters too, the "RO assigned to the stage" is constantly changing, and often non-certified shooters work as scorekeepers.

Lots of good input, and I read over the other threads linked. Looks to me like the true answer is only the RO/CRO (7.1.1, 7.1.2, 8.3.5) assigned to the stage, or the RM (7.1.6) {ETA, as Mark said, also CO and DNROI, but not applicable to this situation} can legitimately call the DQ, but this is complicated somewhat by the nature of our small Level 1 situation. I do realize the rules are the same for all levels, but the reality is the matches are run a bit differently.

Edited December 10, 2012 by six-gun shooter

[Norther]

Those that are officiating that particular match can make calls. (RO's, CRO's, RM)

Okay, that particular match or that particular stage? As I mentioned above, probably half the peanut gallery are match officials on and off through the match.

[MarkCO]

Safety is first and foremost. If you, as the MD, wish to appoint EVERY person in the building as an RO, then by rule anyone could issue penalities including DQs. If that makes the match safer, that is your call. Regardless, I beleive you, as the MD, need to define who is and who is not an RO so people know. By the strict definition, CROs and ROs are assigned to a stage. If you are the MD, you either need to appoint someone as the RM or assume that role for the local matches.

If I am walking back to the car and I see someone with ammo in the safety area, you bet your bottom dollar that I am going to stop that shooter, have them bag and then escort them to the RM if it is not me. So you have to be careful and read the whole rulebook as it relates to safety.

[Flexmoney]

Those that are officiating that particular match can make calls. (RO's, CRO's, RM)

Okay, that particular match or that particular stage? As I mentioned above, probably half the peanut gallery are match officials on and off through the match.

You are doing all you can to regulate the other Match Officials to general "peanut gallery" status. I haven't yet heard anything about the shooter not actually committing the safety infraction, so I take it that is given? So, what are you really arguing here? That the shooter didn't get "caught right"?

Do you want to shoot where safety can be allowed to slip through the cracks, or do you want to shoot where the proper safety rules are followed and communicated to the shooters? (Therefore letting them know they need to be mindful of safety.)

If I were there, I would be speaking with the Match Director and the Range Master about the importance of the timer and clip board RO's to be in proper positions so that they can see better. (that might even involve designing stages a bit differently)

When somebody gets away with a safety violation...well, yeah for them...but what does that message say to the rest of the shooters?

[Sarge]

By the rules, RO, CRO, CO, RM and DNROI have the granted authority to issue a DQ. Stats, Quartermasters and MDs do not have that authority granted by the rules.

10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident,on the competitor’s score sheet, and the Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

7.3 Appointment of Officials

7.3.1 Match organizers must, prior to commencement of a match, appoint a

Match Director and a Range Master to carry out the duties detailed in

these rules. The nominated Range Master should preferably be the most

competent and experienced certified Range Official present (see Rule

7.1.6). For Level I and Level II matches a single person may be

appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master.

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are

actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no

standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons

should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing

Range Official insignia.

I'm talking about a level I club match where the MD RM are one in the same.

[MarkCO]

SNIP... If you are the MD, you either need to appoint someone as the RM or assume that role for the local matches.

I'm talking about a level I club match where the MD RM are one in the same.

So was I.

[Norther]

Okay, two separate instances triggered this thread. The first one was, as I mentioned above, a very clear 180 break seen by many people, including myself, but not the RO running the stage at the time. The shooter was moving fast away from the RO and his body probably blocked his view. I DQ'd the shooter.

The second one I did not see. On a turn and draw stage, the shooter drew too soon. I was standing next to the most experienced shooter locally, our only Master-class shooter and a man I have a lot of respect for (he was the RO running the other stage at the time). I heard him make an exclamation, and asked what happened. He told me, and I asked if we needed to go DQ the shooter. He stated that the RO running the stage had to see the infraction and deal with it himself. We did nothing, but I didn't like that answer, so I'm asking here. I do not like shooters "getting away" with safety infractions.

The instances happened on separate (but consecutive) matches, both with the same RO in charge. I think I need to keep a close eye on that RO too.

I just wanted to be sure I'm on solid ground calling infractions what they are when the ROs don't see it. I can see that our RO assignment is a bit loose, but when they have to rotate around to shoot the stages it makes it difficult.

I believe my questions have been answered. Thanks to all for the input.

[ProGunGuy]

i have seen plenty of missed calls as part of the peanut gallery. I don't feel it is my place to second guess the RO. one of the most blatant one was when a shooter was running next to a long wall with his gun facing up range. lots of people saw it, and said WTH when there was no call.

[cnote]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are

actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no

standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons

should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing

Range Official insignia.

[Norther]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are

actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no

standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons

should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing

Range Official insignia.

This rule does not apply. The shooters observing the action I was referring to ARE the range officials for the match.

[Norther]

i have seen plenty of missed calls as part of the peanut gallery. I don't feel it is my place to second guess the RO. one of the most blatant one was when a shooter was running next to a long wall with his gun facing up range. lots of people saw it, and said WTH when there was no call.

As MD and RM, I feel a bit more responsibility than I did when I was just an RO. It's hard to let a blatant safety violation pass. Shooters tend to be upset when they get a loaded gun pointed at them, and to let the shooter get away with it...not good.

[remoandiris]

As MD and RM, I feel a bit more responsibility than I did when I was just an RO. It's hard to let a blatant safety violation pass. Shooters tend to be upset when they get a loaded gun pointed at them, and to let the shooter get away with it...not good.

Are you saying when you serve as MD or RM you can/will call stop to a CoF if you see what you believe is a safety violation?

[lcs]

Local matches may or may not have ROs with a lot of experience. I find most local matches have a mix of both. Having many years of experience as an RO and CRO, I will call a DQ while shooting in a squad if the RO does not see it. If the MD/RM does not agree, then he can override my call.

A match Director/RM is no different. If he or she observes a DQ, it is the MD/RM duty to call it.

Unless I am working (Match Official)at a Level II/III, I am a competitor and act as such.

[Norther]

Are you saying when you serve as MD or RM you can/will call stop to a CoF if you see what you believe is a safety violation?

RM, not MD. At our L1 matches, I am now both. Absolutely. Rule 7.1.6: "RM has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety,..."

[remoandiris]

Are you saying when you serve as MD or RM you can/will call stop to a CoF if you see what you believe is a safety violation?

RM, not MD. At our L1 matches, I am now both. Absolutely. Rule 7.1.6: "RM has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety,..."

Sure, but who is closest to the action and, by rule, in charge of the CoF? If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in.

Whatever, its your world. IMO, if you're in the peanut gallery, you're in the peanut gallery.

Edited December 18, 2012 by remoandiris

[sperman]

If I am swept by a loaded handgun, I'm yelling "stop" and discussing it with all parties involved, even if I'm just in the peanut gallery. If the RM/MD decides the shooter gets to stay in the match because the RO on the stage didn't see it, that's fine, but I may decide to pack up and go home. It just depends on how unsafe I think the situation is by letting the shooter continue in the match. (As lcs said, this is for a L1 match.)