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Wilkenstein

Production optics

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For those that say "just shoot it locally so HQ will know there is a demand" - how would HQ ever notice that there is a demand? Seems to me that if the results are not broken out separately there would be no indicator. Or are you suggesting that all open minor could be counted as PO?

There are some hard working folks at HQ but I seriously doubt anyone - even Roger - is looking very hard at match results. Therefore no amount of people shooting PO in open would ever raise notice. The only way to see if this was wanted / needed would be to 1) ask the membership or 2) give it a provisional status and see what happens.

This is a significantly easier question than people make it out to be.

1) would more people get involved / stay involved in the sport if there was a PO division? Why or why not?

2) would a PO division harm USPSA in some way? If so, how?

I like guns. I frequently buy new guns that I don't "need". I then try to do something with those new guns - most likely compete in some way. I am an open shooter already because I like to shoot with a dot. I would totally try out PO because:

  • it sounds fun
  • would give me another place to shoot with a dot
  • would be a different kind of competition (different from regular open)
  • would give me another excuse to read / shop / modify and play with guns
  • would give me a whole new skillset to work on (multiple reloads)
  • and other things :P

Surely I'm not the only guy in USPSA that likes guns and would jump at a reason to buy more. The renewal of the "spark", in my opinion, would increase interest in our sport and help continue it's growth (answers Q1 with a yes).

I don't see any "real" negative. For those arguing that it would water down existing competition - aren't you also unknowingly arguing that the division would be popular? For those that argue that there already is an optics division that PO fits in - aren't you missing the point that every gun in our game fits in open? For those that argue "What about revolver optic, single stack optic, yada yada yada" I don't see anyone honestly asking for those - do you? These are not very compelling "negatives" in my opinion. I'd have to answer Q2 with a no.

I really thought a provisional division of Production Optics was a no brainer decision. Let it stand or fall - no harm no foul. There must be something I'm missing I guess.

Chris

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Production optics division sounds fun. Open is pricey to get into and pricey to maintain. Many people like shooting with an Optic but the price to play is too expensive.

Open

$4000-$5500 for a new gun, $2000-$3000 for a used gun plus another $500-$1000 for repairs on someones used problem. Lets just say$3500 for a gun

$600 for a Dillon, oh you want the case feeder and bullet feeder, oh now the 1050.... lets just say $1000 for reloading press/equipment.

Mags? you want them tuned right? Lets just say $500

Hours of frustration tracking down N105, Autocomp, HS6, Silhouette,etc... 40 per pound need sample lbs of various different magic dust to develop secret flat load. I'm being conservative... lets say $300

Brass, well after you spend 100 hours reading every 38 super vs 9 major load on the internet pull your eyes out and bring yourself to the edge of insanity you still have to buy brass. Guess what buddy, there is also super comp and 38 super TJ too! We won't include the doctor or therapy bills. Let's say $150 for 9 major $300 for 38 super... So $200

That is $5500 not including aggravation, starvation, therapy, and at least one failed relationship from reading 38 super vs 9 major during "our time".

Production Optics

Glock/M&P/Beretta/XD/CZ $500-$600

Milled slide and Cerakote refinish $200-$400

Magazines $80

Optic $250-400

2000 rounds of factory 9mm $550

That is about $2000 without aggravation, starvation, therapy, and she is happy because "our time" is not spent reading the entire internet to decide between 38 Super and 9 Major.

Cheers,

:ph34r:

That's funny,I have less invested in my open gun than you have listed for PO, but I using your logic you need to start the PO list with a Tanfoglio stock 2 or 3 that's all worked over so that ups it another $1500 and you are still going to want to reload so that cost needs to be there as well

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For those that say "just shoot it locally so HQ will know there is a demand" - how would HQ ever notice that there is a demand? Seems to me that if the results are not broken out separately there would be no indicator. Or are you suggesting that all open minor could be counted as PO?

There are some hard working folks at HQ but I seriously doubt anyone - even Roger - is looking very hard at match results. Therefore no amount of people shooting PO in open would ever raise notice. The only way to see if this was wanted / needed would be to 1) ask the membership or 2) give it a provisional status and see what happens.

This is a significantly easier question than people make it out to be.

1) would more people get involved / stay involved in the sport if there was a PO division? Why or why not?

2) would a PO division harm USPSA in some way? If so, how?

I like guns. I frequently buy new guns that I don't "need". I then try to do something with those new guns - most likely compete in some way. I am an open shooter already because I like to shoot with a dot. I would totally try out PO because:

  • it sounds fun
  • would give me another place to shoot with a dot
  • would be a different kind of competition (different from regular open)
  • would give me another excuse to read / shop / modify and play with guns
  • would give me a whole new skillset to work on (multiple reloads)
  • and other things :P
Surely I'm not the only guy in USPSA that likes guns and would jump at a reason to buy more. The renewal of the "spark", in my opinion, would increase interest in our sport and help continue it's growth (answers Q1 with a yes).

I don't see any "real" negative. For those arguing that it would water down existing competition - aren't you also unknowingly arguing that the division would be popular? For those that argue that there already is an optics division that PO fits in - aren't you missing the point that every gun in our game fits in open? For those that argue "What about revolver optic, single stack optic, yada yada yada" I don't see anyone honestly asking for those - do you? These are not very compelling "negatives" in my opinion. I'd have to answer Q2 with a no.

I really thought a provisional division of Production Optics was a no brainer decision. Let it stand or fall - no harm no foul. There must be something I'm missing I guess.

Chris

I see about ten people asking for a restrictive production based optic division that all just got very excited that Idpa may add a less restrictive limited like optics division.

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There are two vocal groups, those for and those against a PO provisional division.

Let it happen, let the results prove its not viable! No nationals, just recognized in scoring at everything up to and including Area matches.

If it fails it fails. I just think a lot are just against trying it for some unknown fear that it will be popular. Try it, if I'm wrong I'll be happy to admit you naysayers are correct. But I don't think that will be the case.

I think it would be the 3rd largest division by participation within 2-3 years

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One problem that was explained to me is there is no such thing as a provisional division. It's go or no go. Our current board elected to go with no go.

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One problem that was explained to me is there is no such thing as a provisional division. It's go or no go. Our current board elected to go with no go.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Single Stack was provisional in the beginning

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Production optics division sounds fun. Open is pricey to get into and pricey to maintain. Many people like shooting with an Optic but the price to play is too expensive.

Open

$4000-$5500 for a new gun, $2000-$3000 for a used gun plus another $500-$1000 for repairs on someones used problem. Lets just say$3500 for a gun

$600 for a Dillon, oh you want the case feeder and bullet feeder, oh now the 1050.... lets just say $1000 for reloading press/equipment.

Mags? you want them tuned right? Lets just say $500

Hours of frustration tracking down N105, Autocomp, HS6, Silhouette,etc... 40 per pound need sample lbs of various different magic dust to develop secret flat load. I'm being conservative... lets say $300

Brass, well after you spend 100 hours reading every 38 super vs 9 major load on the internet pull your eyes out and bring yourself to the edge of insanity you still have to buy brass. Guess what buddy, there is also super comp and 38 super TJ too! We won't include the doctor or therapy bills. Let's say $150 for 9 major $300 for 38 super... So $200

That is $5500 not including aggravation, starvation, therapy, and at least one failed relationship from reading 38 super vs 9 major during "our time".

Production Optics

Glock/M&P/Beretta/XD/CZ $500-$600

Milled slide and Cerakote refinish $200-$400

Magazines $80

Optic $250-400

2000 rounds of factory 9mm $550

That is about $2000 without aggravation, starvation, therapy, and she is happy because "our time" is not spent reading the entire internet to decide between 38 Super and 9 Major.

Cheers,

:ph34r:

That's funny,I have less invested in my open gun than you have listed for PO, but I using your logic you need to start the PO list with a Tanfoglio stock 2 or 3 that's all worked over so that ups it another $1500 and you are still going to want to reload so that cost needs to be there as well

You're probably right. It was just a guesstimate not really scientific more of a soap box rant. Production with a Stock 2 and a Dillon is just as expensive as Open. Open guns can be had for a decent deal from time to time.

Maybe at the end of the day we just need to shoot Open minor and shut our dirty yappers, but I want to shoot Production Optics!

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There are two vocal groups, those for and those against a PO provisional division.

Let it happen, let the results prove its not viable! No nationals, just recognized in scoring at everything up to and including Area matches.

If it fails it fails. I just think a lot are just against trying it for some unknown fear that it will be popular. Try it, if I'm wrong I'll be happy to admit you naysayers are correct. But I don't think that will be the case.

I think it would be the 3rd largest division by participation within 2-3 years

I think that is a terrible argument. That means every time 10 people get together on the internet and complain, we should try a new division for a year or two.

Do it locally first. Prove there are more than 10 people interested before making other people expend effort on your pet project.

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Just shoot open minor and be done with this. For those that are old and cant see just point shoot. WTF. Can some one help me unsubscribe from this? I went to the link but it just takes me to the sign up page.

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Just shoot open minor and be done with this. For those that are old and cant see just point shoot. WTF. Can some one help me unsubscribe from this? I went to the link but it just takes me to the sign up page.

top right of this page should allow you to "unfollow" this topic

I ordered my Slide Mounted sight today, got tired of waiting on the DP Pro due out in March

Doctor Sight it is for me. I'll be up and running first week of December. PO in our December monthly match.

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Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept. Shields, Revolvers, Thermal Cameras, Suppressors, Night Vision, Laser Light on Revolvers for the guy carrying the shield and/or Optics are all widely used but not always standard issued due to budgets and City Hall or County Commission politics. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, optics can be super useful for clearing a room or house in a low light situation with a guy who has barricaded himself and girlfriend into a back bedroom. Throw in a little smoke or gas and guess what you can't see sights through your goggles for the guy now holding a knife to her. Basically any call after dark would be useful with an optic because you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath. Night sights don't actually work all that great so it evolves into point shooting looking over the slide. There is a lot of discussion in LE communities of how certain situations Optics can be a huge advantage. Granted the day shift guy working in broad daylight probably won't benefit all that much from an Optic, but most likely he's command staff just trying to get to lunch and back. Since that day shift guy going to lunch and back approves the budgets you are right it probably will not be approved. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

Exactly, why would anyone want or get a optic slapped on their gun when training dosent even happen.

HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used). I would love to be a fly on the wall for that guy who does this to his duty issued firearm. It would be hilarious, because most agencies have strict policy on this. On the other hand, I love a good rebel sticking it to the man, to heck with policy. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

​A optic isn't any different. The departments that are liberal enough to approve a optic usually don't mind the other things. Go ask Dave Bowie who he's been building optic duty guns for for the last 15 years.

See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there. What!? Huh!? How'd did what go? Okay you're right, I'm stupid, I concede. A majority

A majority of the "ProOPtics" guns that are already out there would be ILLEGAL for production optics division.

you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath

:rolleyes:

Edited by NPSS

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For those that say "just shoot it locally so HQ will know there is a demand" - how would HQ ever notice that there is a demand?

if there actually was a demand, they would know because you could send them the results of the PO-only match you promoted, and when they saw 100's of people participating, they would pay attention. Also other MD's (like myself) would stop opposing PO and start supporting it wholheartedly if we got 5-6 people regularly shooting it at our local matches. Heck, even 3-4 regulars would probably turn the tide for me.

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Relooking at the Glock G34 for this.. and leave the XDM alone for now

is there a good .. inexpensive sight anyone would recommend?

I've never shot open and before spending $400.. I'd like to see if there's a $100 sight to try it out with

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I think if everyone knew how to focus their eye muscles, we wouldn't even be talking about this. My eyes are horrid, but they know how to focus shift....open red dots actually ruin that ability.

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I think if everyone knew how to focus their eye muscles, we wouldn't even be talking about this. My eyes are horrid, but they know how to focus shift....open red dots actually ruin that ability.

Don't say that...you'll put all the manufacturers of reading glasses and bifocals out of business :devil:

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Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept. Shields, Revolvers, Thermal Cameras, Suppressors, Night Vision, Laser Light on Revolvers for the guy carrying the shield and/or Optics are all widely used but not always standard issued due to budgets and City Hall or County Commission politics. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, optics can be super useful for clearing a room or house in a low light situation with a guy who has barricaded himself and girlfriend into a back bedroom. Throw in a little smoke or gas and guess what you can't see sights through your goggles for the guy now holding a knife to her. Basically any call after dark would be useful with an optic because you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath. Night sights don't actually work all that great so it evolves into point shooting looking over the slide. There is a lot of discussion in LE communities of how certain situations Optics can be a huge advantage. Granted the day shift guy working in broad daylight probably won't benefit all that much from an Optic, but most likely he's command staff just trying to get to lunch and back. Since that day shift guy going to lunch and back approves the budgets you are right it probably will not be approved. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

Exactly, why would anyone want or get a optic slapped on their gun when training dosent even happen.

HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used). I would love to be a fly on the wall for that guy who does this to his duty issued firearm. It would be hilarious, because most agencies have strict policy on this. On the other hand, I love a good rebel sticking it to the man, to heck with policy. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

​A optic isn't any different. The departments that are liberal enough to approve a optic usually don't mind the other things. Go ask Dave Bowie who he's been building optic duty guns for for the last 15 years.

See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there. What!? Huh!? How'd did what go? Okay you're right, I'm stupid, I concede. A majority

A majority of the "ProOPtics" guns that are already out there would be ILLEGAL for production optics division.

you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath as well as in the day time. I was trying to make the point that an optic would make things better at night. In reality just put the beam on and squeeze. Poor wording you win.

:rolleyes: Don't get all smug. :closedeyes:

I conceded and said you were right already. What the heck do you want!? :goof:

We are off topic at this point and not making much sense so let's end this right meow :cheers:

Edited by OperationHitFactor

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Agreed. It's been hashed and bashed pretty much until its flat as a pancake. Let's move on.

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My 1st Production Optics Match is 12-20

Yep, I added PO to the Divisions in the match.

OK Corral Action Challenge December match

Putting a Doctor Sight on my Shadow early next week, practice will start after the Factory Gun Classic on Dec. 6th.

Let the fun begin

Edited by zhunter

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My 1st Production Optics Match is 12-20

Yep, I added PO to the Divisions in the match.

OK Corral Action Challenge December match

Putting a Doctor Sight on my Shadow early next week, practice will start after the Factory Gun Classic on Dec. 6th.

Let the fun begin

So, are you going to submit the scores under Open or Production? I see its is a USPSA L1 match (can it really be a USPSA match and have PO?), but since USPSA does not have a PO division, where you gonna put the scores?

Edited by PKT1106

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My 1st Production Optics Match is 12-20

Yep, I added PO to the Divisions in the match.

OK Corral Action Challenge December match

Putting a Doctor Sight on my Shadow early next week, practice will start after the Factory Gun Classic on Dec. 6th.

Let the fun begin

So, are you going to submit the scores under Open or Production? I see its is a USPSA L1 match (can it really be a USPSA match and have PO?), but since USPSA does not have a PO division, where you gonna put the scores?

We are a new club that conducts our matches under USPSA rules, but we have no affiliation yet.

I'm shooting Production Optics

Any other questions?

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My 1st Production Optics Match is 12-20

Yep, I added PO to the Divisions in the match.

OK Corral Action Challenge December match

Putting a Doctor Sight on my Shadow early next week, practice will start after the Factory Gun Classic on Dec. 6th.

Let the fun begin

So, are you going to submit the scores under Open or Production? I see its is a USPSA L1 match (can it really be a USPSA match and have PO?), but since USPSA does not have a PO division, where you gonna put the scores?

We are a new club that conducts our matches under USPSA rules, but we have no affiliation yet.

I'm shooting Production Optics

Any other questions?

How are you calling it a USPSA match with no affiliation? Don't you think that would confuse some people? I see USPSA L1 Match on the sign up web page. Are you pending?

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