Nimitz Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 SS? L10? Revo? I never even knew that these divisions existed until my first classifier match becuase no one shoots them locally ... So, if we're going to talk about div changes, let's look at all of them, not just the ones people don't like. SS and L10 shooters already have divisions they can compete in (to borrow a tactic others here seem to think is a valid reason against PO) so why not get rid of them? Or, since limited is getting close to open except for no comp and optic, how about we just get rid of everything except open and production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Everyone that is saying like well what about limited optics or revo optics or SS optics, that is a pointless argument. We aren't discussing implementation of any of those divisions right now, so it doesn't really matter. And, if you don't mind only having 8 rounds and moon clip reloads shoot your revo with a red dot in PO. Limited optics is completely the same as open already (minus the comp and bigger magazines, but I remember reading somewhere all the world class shooters would give up the comp for the dot any day) so that is pointless as well. That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Everyone that is saying like well what about limited optics or revo optics or SS optics, that is a pointless argument. We aren't discussing implementation of any of those divisions right now, so it doesn't really matter. And, if you don't mind only having 8 rounds and moon clip reloads shoot your revo with a red dot in PO. Limited optics is completely the same as open already (minus the comp and bigger magazines, but I remember reading somewhere all the world class shooters would give up the comp for the dot any day) so that is pointless as well. That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. If we are seriously talking about bringing in shooters or at least bringing in guns that shooters have that have no place in USPSA currently, I suggest that we look at Open 10 and make it Single Stack and then also Open Revolver with major and minor PF. With the Open Revo you might get guys from ICORE Open SS, maybe guys from Steel. As for not shooting a division, I have shot every division we have. I don't shoot them regularly, L-10 recently and before that Limited, but I have shot in all 6 divisions. Sadly with the change to 8-shot revo it is unlikely I'll bother there. SS I like and will play in again. All depends on how I feel. Production, I like and I shoot, from time to time. Just currently not playing there. It used to be I would shoot a different division each match at 3-4 different clubs. So, to say I am not interested or don't have a horse in the this race is patently wrong. And as a member of USPSA I have an opinion and the right to express it. Production Optics if it were to be a strct "Add a dot to your otherwise legal gun" division would be one thing, but as ohters have pointed out, those guns don't really exist becasue a lot of other work that disallows using a gun in Production has likely been done and we'd have a hell of a time policing the modifications that are incorporated in these guns. So wht we are likely to wind up with is Open light, i.e. Open Minor without a Comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Everyone that is saying like well what about limited optics or revo optics or SS optics, that is a pointless argument. We aren't discussing implementation of any of those divisions right now, so it doesn't really matter. And, if you don't mind only having 8 rounds and moon clip reloads shoot your revo with a red dot in PO. Limited optics is completely the same as open already (minus the comp and bigger magazines, but I remember reading somewhere all the world class shooters would give up the comp for the dot any day) so that is pointless as well. That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. If we are seriously talking about bringing in shooters or at least bringing in guns that shooters have that have no place in USPSA currently, I suggest that we look at Open 10 and make it Single Stack and then also Open Revolver with major and minor PF. With the Open Revo you might get guys from ICORE Open SS, maybe guys from Steel.As for not shooting a division, I have shot every division we have. I don't shoot them regularly, L-10 recently and before that Limited, but I have shot in all 6 divisions. Sadly with the change to 8-shot revo it is unlikely I'll bother there. SS I like and will play in again. All depends on how I feel. Production, I like and I shoot, from time to time. Just currently not playing there. It used to be I would shoot a different division each match at 3-4 different clubs. So, to say I am not interested or don't have a horse in the this race is patently wrong. And as a member of USPSA I have an opinion and the right to express it. Production Optics if it were to be a strct "Add a dot to your otherwise legal gun" division would be one thing, but as ohters have pointed out, those guns don't really exist becasue a lot of other work that disallows using a gun in Production has likely been done and we'd have a hell of a time policing the modifications that are incorporated in these guns. So wht we are likely to wind up with is Open light, i.e. Open Minor without a Comp. Jim The add a dot is actually very easy, I know of two companies producing dovetail mounting plates for several different red dots, Leupold has their own with several different dovetail cuts to fit many different guns/models. So yes it is a strict add you dot with a low cost mounting system. Btw, this has been pointed out in this thread and at least two others as well. Production Optics FTW Happy now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Look, if people want to shoot I am all for it. I am not sure that we are going to bring in a lot of people that are not already shooting our sport with PO. They have a gun that fits and don't shoot it now. The people that have modified their Prod gun so that it is no longer Prod legal are the people want to join us, and telling them that their modified Glock is too modified isn't the path. What I have gotten out of these threads is that people want this. OK Do it, but if Production drops by 30-50% and no one new joins I contend that it is a failure. If people NOT CURRENTLY Playing the game join in, then we win, we all win, if all we do is shift from one division to another, then we lose. The above is my opinion, it is correct, regardless of any misguided thoughts by others to the contrary. Then again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Anyone have any intel on how the Board may go? Have any Board members previously expressed their opinion in favor or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Why is the only success criteria for this new division whether new shooters join USPSA as a result? We bought Steel Challenge and I'll bet that wasn't the overriding criteria for deciding to do that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. why not cross it now? why not integrate production optics with ss optics? Since MANY people have carry guns in grownup calibers, that would allow us an 8-round major and 10-round minor category, for DA or SA guns with optics. Make it a bit more inclusive. Or would that make it harder to 'win' a plaque? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Look, if people want to shoot I am all for it....... I am not sure that we are going to bring in a lot of people that are not already shooting our sport with PO......... What I have gotten out of these threads is that people want this.......... OK Do it, but if Production drops by 30-50% and no one new joins I contend that it is a failure. If people NOT CURRENTLY Playing the game join in, then we win, we all win, if all we do is shift from one division to another, then we lose. The above is my opinion, it is correct, regardless of any misguided thoughts by others to the contrary. Then again... Agreed, BUT what might actually happen is we keep some shooters who decide that they no longer enjoy 165PF major &/or their eyesight starts to deteriorate AND we gain some juniors who don't actually realize that firearms are made without optics-dots or uncool not to have one.Of course it will be a rob Peter to pay Paul at first and over totals will be the same. This is coming from a guy who shoots SS in the spring , then goes production or limited the rest of the season. I also actually bought a 9major open gun for future use prior to this whole discussion, and consider myself fortunate to be able to afford multiple toys. Average joe opinion Edited August 19, 2014 by cnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) . Edited August 19, 2014 by cnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Look, if people want to shoot I am all for it....... I am not sure that we are going to bring in a lot of people that are not already shooting our sport with PO......... What I have gotten out of these threads is that people want this.......... OK Do it, but if Production drops by 30-50% and no one new joins I contend that it is a failure. If people NOT CURRENTLY Playing the game join in, then we win, we all win, if all we do is shift from one division to another, then we lose. The above is my opinion, it is correct, regardless of any misguided thoughts by others to the contrary. Then again... Agreed, BUT what might actually happen is we keep some shooters who decide that they no longer enjoy 165PF major &/or their eyesight starts to deteriorate AND we gain some juniors who don't actually realize that firearms are made without optics-dots or uncool not to have one.Of course it will be a rob Peter to pay Paul at first and over totals will be the same. This is coming from a guy who shoots SS in the spring , then goes production or limited the rest of the season. I also actually bought a 9major open gun for future use prior to this whole discussion, and consider myself fortunate to be able to afford multiple toys. Average joe opinion Carry optics are the present, not the future, and they'll only get more popular as time goes on. Semi automatics took revolvers, double stacks took single stacks, optics will do the same. Making a division for RMR/DP guns will be on the right side of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. why not cross it now? why not integrate production optics with ss optics? Since MANY people have carry guns in grownup calibers, that would allow us an 8-round major and 10-round minor category, for DA or SA guns with optics. Make it a bit more inclusive. Or would that make it harder to 'win' a plaque? What's a grown-up caliber? More sarcasm-falling flat, because of mean spirit. Because its apples and oranges that's why. Specious argument. Why putz around moto?Why not just Open and not Open? Simple enough. motosapiens wants all inclusive, or SS mixed with Production, production optics/Open, or keep what we have. Anything to be contrary mary. Who cares about "win" a plaque, winning mobile homes and boats, or any other nonsense you have spouted here? Give it a rest. Shoot production and RO and be happy. Stop trying to cut others down. This isn't doody. We might all get hit by a meteor, too. Or Production Optics might just be fine. And the sky won't fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. why not cross it now? why not integrate production optics with ss optics? Since MANY people have carry guns in grownup calibers, that would allow us an 8-round major and 10-round minor category, for DA or SA guns with optics. Make it a bit more inclusive. Or would that make it harder to 'win' a plaque? What's a grown-up caliber? More sarcasm-falling flat, because of mean spirit. Because its apples and oranges that's why. Specious argument. Why putz around moto?Why not just Open and not Open? Simple enough. motosapiens wants all inclusive, or SS mixed with Production, production optics/Open, or keep what we have. Anything to be contrary mary. Who cares about "win" a plaque, winning mobile homes and boats, or any other nonsense you have spouted here? Give it a rest. Shoot production and RO and be happy. Stop trying to cut others down. This isn't doody. We might all get hit by a meteor, too. Or Production Optics might just be fine. And the sky won't fall. Are you my ex-wife? If not, I don't think there's any need to take friendly internet banter so seriously. I think it's ok to float different ideas and discuss them. You call it 'contrary' (so did my ex), I call it looking critically at all sides of an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycwebb Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. why not cross it now? why not integrate production optics with ss optics? Since MANY people have carry guns in grownup calibers, that would allow us an 8-round major and 10-round minor category, for DA or SA guns with optics. Make it a bit more inclusive. Or would that make it harder to 'win' a plaque? What's a grown-up caliber? More sarcasm-falling flat, because of mean spirit. Because its apples and oranges that's why. Specious argument. Why putz around moto?Why not just Open and not Open? Simple enough. motosapiens wants all inclusive, or SS mixed with Production, production optics/Open, or keep what we have. Anything to be contrary mary. Who cares about "win" a plaque, winning mobile homes and boats, or any other nonsense you have spouted here? Give it a rest. Shoot production and RO and be happy. Stop trying to cut others down. This isn't doody. We might all get hit by a meteor, too. Or Production Optics might just be fine. And the sky won't fall. Are you my ex-wife? If not, I don't think there's any need to take friendly internet banter so seriously. I think it's ok to float different ideas and discuss them. You call it 'contrary' (so did my ex), I call it looking critically at all sides of an issue Did your ex-wife carry a 9? Still waiting for my alimony check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 That only leaves SS optics. And maybe there is a place for that, but it isn't the discussion right now so we can cross that bridge when we get to it. why not cross it now? why not integrate production optics with ss optics? Since MANY people have carry guns in grownup calibers, that would allow us an 8-round major and 10-round minor category, for DA or SA guns with optics. Make it a bit more inclusive. Or would that make it harder to 'win' a plaque? You want to shoot your "grownup" caliber, be my guest. Shoot a 50 AE or 44 mag for all I care, but you will still be minor when we score the targets. I think the idea of keeping out SA guns is to keep people from showing up with an edge with a dot on top. But that is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 How about a new division called "The Judge"? Only handguns that shoot 410 shotgun shells allowed .. Of course an optic would be allowed as well so maybe we should call it "Open The Judge" division .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 How about a new division called "The Judge"? Only handguns that shoot 410 shotgun shells allowed .. Of course an optic would be allowed as well so maybe we should call it "Open The Judge" division .... That would use up a lot of pasters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garyg19 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 How about a new division called "The Judge"? Only handguns that shoot 410 shotgun shells allowed .. Of course an optic would be allowed as well so maybe we should call it "Open The Judge" division .... Respectfully, it should be called "Here Come Da Judge" division.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 How about a new division called "The Judge"? Only handguns that shoot 410 shotgun shells allowed .. Of course an optic would be allowed as well so maybe we should call it "Open The Judge" division .... Hope there aren't any shots longer than 15 yards or so, might be kinda tough.... [emoji12] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I'm 1 step closer, my Delta Point-2 mount arrived at CZ Custom yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Cool. Looking forward to seeing it when it's done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I've completed nine matches with mine so far, eight local ones and the Area-3 Championships. I'm still having a blast and still learning all the nuances of shooting in a 10-round world. The ammo is all loaded for Nationals and I just got some new recoil springs, its surprising how much the factory spring has compressed in such a short time, its at least an inch shorter than the new ones (same number of coils). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I'm 1 step closer, my Delta Point-2 mount arrived at CZ Custom yesterday What're you having it mounted on and how? I talked to Eric there and he wasn't sure how to mount it a month ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Britin as you are shooting open with a gun that would be legal in the proposed division I will direct my question to you. Would you feel out gunned if you were completing against someone with a single stack gun with a dot in either major or minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The trigger pull on a single-action 1911 is superior to just about any gun, and its extremely difficult to beat someone scoring Major unless there is a significant skill differential. Production and SS are radically different from one another which is why they have separate divisions for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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