motosapiens Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 So, if you want to shoot "X" division, great, but don't fault a group that wants to shoot a production legal gun with a dot on it. Why all the intolerance? Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I would even be willing to have prod-optics be one of those divisions a few times a year, and just let the real production shooters (even me) either bring a different gun or score limited minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I must have missed it somewhere in this long topic. Why does having 6 or 7 divisions in a match pose any problem? I might agree if we had to score by hand, but every club has at least EZWinScore to handle that drudgery. And the rulebook already provides for not recognizing various divisions based on turnout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I must have missed it somewhere in this long topic. Why does having 6 or 7 divisions in a match pose any problem? I might agree if we had to score by hand, but every club has at least EZWinScore to handle that drudgery. And the rulebook already provides for not recognizing various divisions based on turnout. You will find a theme, in this entire thread, about motosapiens and OUshooter and a couple other guys that are just flat against Production Optic, without anything other than "I'm against it". Do like the rest of do and ignore. The world is not flat. No matter how many times you say it.Your point is valid and well taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I must have missed it somewhere in this long topic. Why does having 6 or 7 divisions in a match pose any problem? I might agree if we had to score by hand, but every club has at least EZWinScore to handle that drudgery. And the rulebook already provides for not recognizing various divisions based on turnout. You will find a theme, in this entire thread, about motosapiens and OUshooter and a couple other guys that are just flat against Production Optic, without anything other than "I'm against it". Do like the rest of do and ignore. The world is not flat. No matter how many times you say it.Your point is valid and well taken. I love humor in all its forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I must have missed it somewhere in this long topic. Why does having 6 or 7 divisions in a match pose any problem? I might agree if we had to score by hand, but every club has at least EZWinScore to handle that drudgery. And the rulebook already provides for not recognizing various divisions based on turnout. You missed the point. It's about Further dividing up the talent pool with more divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Because we already have too many divisions. I would resist the creation of *any* new division until we clean up what we have. Maybe we just need to stop offering every division at every match. Shoot the popular ones, but if less than 5 people show up for your division, then you get scored in limited or open. I dunno. I must have missed it somewhere in this long topic. Why does having 6 or 7 divisions in a match pose any problem? I might agree if we had to score by hand, but every club has at least EZWinScore to handle that drudgery. And the rulebook already provides for not recognizing various divisions based on turnout. You will find a theme, in this entire thread, about motosapiens and OUshooter and a couple other guys that are just flat against Production Optic, without anything other than "I'm against it". Do like the rest of do and ignore. The world is not flat. No matter how many times you say it.Your point is valid and well taken. I'm not against production optics, I just haven't been shown the need for it. Many people talk, but just about no one shows up and shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Build it and they WILL come Why would anyone come out if there's no where to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yeah, but just because it's there doesn't mean people will come. We already have divisions like that. And this isn't bringing in new shooters, it's just going to move them around and make all the divisions at a match a little smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 You are basing your assumption on what statistics exactly? Are there more shooters now after the addition of Production? My guess is yes. So it is a likely extrapolation to say PO will have a positive influence too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 And furthermore, using many of your logics, why don't we just combine Open and Limited? I mean they are similar, just one has a dot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 All 2 guys in SS and all 1 guy in L10 might go for Production Optic at my local club. I think every shooter shoots these divisions at some point and then go back to what they were doing. Production Optics doesn't exist yet, so no one is bringing in any new shooters anywhere. Most of the new shooters here are coming over from IDPA, and once they start, they pick it up real quick. Production and Limited is common ground. They want Production to be original mags, not ten in the mag, but that has never been a game changer, because that is an easy rule to follow. Production Optics guys that are new won't come from IDPA. I know a lot of people have them here because I see them at range time. I am not sure why you can't shoot SS in Production, maybe you can. L10 is baby Limited, so it can stay on the shelf forever for where it is needed. Revolver? Everybody has one, but not for competition. Open is the fun anything goes division and it can be entertaining to watch... Limited is good, not sure why we needed thumb rests, but whatever. I hope International IPSC will make Classic a permanent division this year. Probably see an uptick in SS after that. So what if there is one more Division? How does that impact anybody in a negative way,really? Other than a construct you have made in your mind about what USPSA is and how it should be. I am always looking for new shooters to come out. It is not an easy sell because it can be intimidating when you start. Telling new shooters to go to Open because "anything fits there" is not the way to go. Open shooters are loud, fast dragon slayers and will leave you in the dust in 2 seconds flat! Production Optic should come in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPMatt Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Prod optics stinks.... Let's get back to scrapping L-10 and revolver. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Prod optics stinks.... Let's get back to scrapping L-10 and revolver. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Amazing post So you say it stinks, so you've shot it and didn't like it? Or you just think it might stink? Please post the results of the match/matches where you shot Open Minor with a production legal gun with a dot. I'm interested to see the proof that you've done it to declare it stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Build it and they WILL come Why would anyone come out if there's no where to go? You mean like they come for revo, SS and L10? pardon me for being skeptical. And there is a division where those guns can already shoot, people are just choosing not to shoot them because that division is apparently not sufficiently watered down for them to win, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I've lost count of the number of people that have approached me since I started shooting in Production Optics and expressed their support for the proposal. I'm having more fun shooting this gun than I ever did when I was shooting an Open gun, which I've done since IPSC first split up Open/Standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leas327 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Build it and they WILL come Why would anyone come out if there's no where to go? You mean like they come for revo, SS and L10? pardon me for being skeptical.And there is a division where those guns can already shoot, people are just choosing not to shoot them because that division is apparently not sufficiently watered down for them to win, lol. I will shoot it. I bought a gun and picked it up today. It just so happens that my FFL is also a gun range that hosts USPSA matches. People were surprised to see my new production gun and my plans for it. I also had a chance to talk to one of the candidates for Area director while I was there. He understood both sides of the issue and wasn't opposed to a provisional division. Helps me figure out where my vote should go. Divisions are already watered down. When you have guys who only shoot one division no matter what, the pool will always be shallow. We need more pros like Nils that are down to shoot whatever and separate Nationals to give them the opportunity to do it. If you are worried about locals, don't be. It seems the guys who take it serious enough to win locals have already quit caring about winning locals. By your logic I have enough boat and RVs in my backyard to have a pretty nice show. Nobody said you can't still shoot production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I've lost count of the number of people that have approached me since I started shooting in Production Optics and expressed their support for the proposal. I'm having more fun shooting this gun than I ever did when I was shooting an Open gun, which I've done since IPSC first split up Open/Standard. You need to stop shooting a PO gun becuase according some on this forum it is only an idea and does not exist and therefore it's not possible to shoot it .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I just hope the BOD slaps PO down so hard it goes away so we can get back to shooting the 3 popular divisions we already have. And exactly which three "popular" divisions would that be? And I assume you want the 3 non popular divisions to be eliminated, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I've lost count of the number of people that have approached me since I started shooting in Production Optics and expressed their support for the proposal. I'm having more fun shooting this gun than I ever did when I was shooting an Open gun, which I've done since IPSC first split up Open/Standard. You need to stop shooting a PO gun becuase according some on this forum it is only an idea and does not exist and therefore it's not possible to shoot it .... According to some on this forum, PO wouldn't be 'competitive' in their local match, so it doesn't exist and it's not possible for them to shoot it until it has its own division with 2-3 competitors per match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) Meh. Edited August 18, 2014 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I've lost count of the number of people that have approached me since I started shooting in Production Optics and expressed their support for the proposal. I'm having more fun shooting this gun than I ever did when I was shooting an Open gun, which I've done since IPSC first split up Open/Standard.You need to stop shooting a PO gun becuase according some on this forum it is only an idea and does not exist and therefore it's not possible to shoot it .... He is NOT shooting production optics he IS shooting open with a gun he believes would be legal in a division that doesn't yet exist based on what he believes the rules for that division would be. That said don't stop keep having fun that is what this is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 How about adding Open Revolver? Open Single Stack? Limited Optics? Broomhandle Mauser Optic? SS is decent here, L-10 is as well, even with the recent rule change regarding capacity. Production is strong. From our last match: Limited 13 Limited-10 26 Open 13 Prod 28 Rev 1 SS 7 Revolver was light, we usually have 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) How about adding Open Revolver? Open Single Stack? Limited Optics? Broomhandle Mauser Optic? SS is decent here, L-10 is as well, even with the recent rule change regarding capacity. Production is strong. From our last match: Limited 13 Limited-10 26 Open 13 Prod 28 Rev 1 SS 7 Revolver was light, we usually have 3-4 NJ, your participation stats are never going to be reflective of the non restrictive states of course. You are dogged in you opposition to Production Optics, keep up the good work to opposing something you have no interest in shooting. And I'll do the same to support it because I WILL shoot it. Edited August 18, 2014 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I can't wait to shoot with all the people who wish to put a red dot on their glock, but still can't stipple outside the lines. Best Idea Ever I just google image searched "red dot glock" and the 1st 10 guns wouldn't be PO legal. Edited August 18, 2014 by theblacknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 How about adding Open Revolver? Open Single Stack? Limited Optics? Broomhandle Mauser Optic? SS is decent here, L-10 is as well, even with the recent rule change regarding capacity. Production is strong. From our last match: Limited 13 Limited-10 26 Open 13 Prod 28 Rev 1 SS 7 Revolver was light, we usually have 3-4 NJ, your participation stats are never going to be reflective of the non restrictive states of course. NJ isn't the only state with restrictions and skewed numbers though..... Add in NY, MD, HI, MA, CA -- am I leaving anyone out -- and you've got a sizable chink of the USPSA population affected...... When SS was first a provisional division, I supported it pretty early on, even though I was only seeing 1-3 competitors at each monthly match (out of a total attendance of 50-60 shooters). Why? Because others were reporting that it was wildly popular in their neck of the woods...... Same reason I'm behind PO..... Let's see what happens if it's a provisional division..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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