StraightUp_OG Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 More ad hominem attacks eh? The "If you don't agree with me or I don't like your arguments so don't post" is no way to have a discussion and just goes to further discount anything useful you might have to say. Really to bad you are so myopic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 it has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with their positions ... it has to do with the fact that it's the same old stuff over and over again ....and it's also simply not true ... the facts are that open & PO are not the same .....no matter what someone's opinion is .... It's kinda like gravity: you don't have to like gravity or not like gravity or understand gravity or even believe it exists ... that doesn't change the fact that gravity is real and no matter how many times you say otherwise or have a dissenting opinion the facts surrounding gravity will not change ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Not all 600 posts. I've looked at bits and pieces. The object is to take a Production Gun and add ONLY a dot. No other mods that aren't already allowed. Sorry, If that is right, it is still wrong. I'd rather see us bring back a modified Modified Division as that actually makes some sense. it is essentially an 'Open Division Carry Gun' Division. Optic Production just dilutes the field. All those clamoring for allowing all the modifications will keep at it. Then again, I could easily be wrong. Bring back Modified? Why? It was not successful, why bring it back? It turned out to be an expensive equipment race that failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 it has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with their positions ... it has to do with the fact that it's the same old stuff over and over again ....and it's also simply not true ... the facts are that open & PO are not the same .....no matter what someone's opinion is .... It's kinda like gravity: you don't have to like gravity or not like gravity or understand gravity or even believe it exists ... that doesn't change the fact that gravity is real and no matter how many times you say otherwise or have a dissenting opinion the facts surrounding gravity will not change ... The rules for open and PO are not the same you're right. But a PO gun is a legal open gun now with out any changes to the rules. That is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 USPSA shooters by nature seem to not like or understand why some shooters shoot a division other than the one they shoot. Limited shooters look oddly at magazine restricted divisions. Race gun shooters scratch their heads at production guys and wonder why they want to shoot plastic guns and crappy triggers. Truth be told, we all like different things. Ice cream would even be boring if we only had chocolate and vanilla! So, if you want to shoot "X" division, great, but don't fault a group that wants to shoot a production legal gun with a dot on it. Why all the intolerance? The argument from the Open shooters is just shoot open. As said above, the premise behind a Production Optics is nothing like Open. The Production Open crowd is not going to hurt your 3rd ranked division relative to participation! The PO shooter is never going to be an Open shooter, either because they don't want to spend or don't have the money to play with the cool kids. They don't want to be forced to reload. And let's face it, I'm sure every Open shooter can name some guy who shoots Open that does not reload, but let's face it, most likely over 95% of Open shooters reload. As for the Production guys that are opposed to PO, sure there will be some crossover. But a lot of the PO shooters are probably like me and having eye problems. Yep, I took a 5 year break do to family stuff and when I wanted to come back I realized I could not see my front sight very well. So yes, rather than guys like me who might gravitate toward other hobbies, PO provides the opportunity to keep a group aging shooters active. I've heard the argument that essentially says screw the old guys. That's funny! Look around the next local match you go shoot, yeah just step back and look around. If you rid USPSA of old guys, it dies! Old guys are the rank and file, old guys are the lifeblood of USPSA! Old guys foot the bills of USPSA via weekly and monthly shooting participation fees and yearly dues. Just one more thing to think about for all you Production Optics naysayers, are young people/new shooters joining USPSA at the same rate as older shooters are either dropping out or becoming inactive? Truth be told the answer to that is no! Production Optics is a chance to strengthen the USPSA sport and organization. Kids play video games, video games have guns with red dots, kids think red dots are cool! We need young shooters and Production Optics is an opportunity to do that. Is a Production Optics guaranteed to be successful? No! But it might be. Give it a try. If you have really read this thread, you will see that we are really asking for a provisional division. Let's give it a try and let it sink or swim on it's own. That's all from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Amen ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 it has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with their positions ... it has to do with the fact that it's the same old stuff over and over again ....and it's also simply not true ... the facts are that open & PO are not the same .....no matter what someone's opinion is .... It's kinda like gravity: you don't have to like gravity or not like gravity or understand gravity or even believe it exists ... that doesn't change the fact that gravity is real and no matter how many times you say otherwise or have a dissenting opinion the facts surrounding gravity will not change ... The rules for open and PO are not the same you're right. But a PO gun is a legal open gun now with out any changes to the rules. That is a fact. By that logic, why not get rid of all divisions except open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 it has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with their positions ... it has to do with the fact that it's the same old stuff over and over again ....and it's also simply not true ... the facts are that open & PO are not the same .....no matter what someone's opinion is .... It's kinda like gravity: you don't have to like gravity or not like gravity or understand gravity or even believe it exists ... that doesn't change the fact that gravity is real and no matter how many times you say otherwise or have a dissenting opinion the facts surrounding gravity will not change ...The rules for open and PO are not the same you're right. But a PO gun is a legal open gun now with out any changes to the rules. That is a fact. You might wnt to go back and review the previous 23 pages ... No one ever said a PO legal gun wasn't legal to shoot in open ... It's the open division, just about anything is legal ... It's just not very competitive, you know, that whole pesky major vs minor thing ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 (edited) it has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with their positions ... it has to do with the fact that it's the same old stuff over and over again ....and it's also simply not true ... the facts are that open & PO are not the same .....no matter what someone's opinion is .... It's kinda like gravity: you don't have to like gravity or not like gravity or understand gravity or even believe it exists ... that doesn't change the fact that gravity is real and no matter how many times you say otherwise or have a dissenting opinion the facts surrounding gravity will not change ... I can't believe you make a comparison between a cosmological fact in gravity to a proposed division PO that does not exist in any reality! The fact is production optics DOES NOT EXIST! Gravity does! Your own argument supports the epic fail in said argument. Opinion is the only thing that matters in this discussion because PO DOES NOT EXIST and no matter how much you argue that you are correct and others are wrong it is still conjecture and other opinions are just as valid. The fact that the arguments you don't like that are being made over and over PROVES that they are valid to those making them. You don't agree so they must be invalid which in itself is again just YOUR OPINION! I will leave you with this, I have already acquiesced to the idea of a provisional division, earlier in this thread, to see if there will be the participation levels to make it permanent and if so great if not then great. But until then ALL opinions are valid. Just like yours. Edited August 15, 2014 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 really ...? Are you seriously going to try an argue that PO and open are the same? That is the only fact I was talking about .... as for opinions, of course everyone is entitled to have one. However, just like with gravity, you can have any opinion you want about it but that won't change the facts about gravity, they are indisputable. So it is with PO & open as they pertain to this ONE fact: they are different. And therefore as a response to this new proposed division to just tell someone that we already have this division and it's called 'open' is quite frankly just ignorant of the facts. I don't mind folks debating all other aspects of the PO division because there are valid points on all sides but not about that its the same as open because debating something that the reasonable person knows to be untrue is just silly ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 There are NO FACTS about PO it is just an idea. The topic is MOOT and the fact that you think there is some sort of FACTS in this discussion is laughable. What a reasonable person knows is that PO DOES NOT EXIST yet period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 (edited) hmmm .... so there can be no facts about ideas? And your standard for being able to have this discussion (which you refer to as "moot") is that because a group of random humans called the "BoD of USPSA" has not yet sanctified this idea and blessed it with holy water it therefore is not "real" and therefore it cannot be talked about because it doesn't exist . Very interesting ... wrong, but very interesting ... Edited August 15, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I can't believe you make a comparison between a cosmological fact in gravity to a proposed division PO that does not exist in any reality! The fact is production optics DOES NOT EXIST! Gravity does! Your own argument supports the epic fail in said argument. Opinion is the only thing that matters in this discussion because PO DOES NOT EXIST and no matter how much you argue that you are correct and others are wrong it is still conjecture and other opinions are just as valid. The fact that the arguments you don't like that are being made over and over PROVES that they are valid to those making them. You don't agree so they must be invalid which in itself is again just YOUR OPINION! I will leave you with this, I have already acquiesced to the idea of a provisional division, earlier in this thread, to see if there will be the participation levels to make it permanent and if so great if not then great. But until then ALL opinions are valid. Just like yours. Wow With solid reasoning like this it's obvious Production Optics will never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Wow With solid reasoning like this it's obvious Production Optics will never happen Then what do I do with the SP01's I just picked up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Wow With solid reasoning like this it's obvious Production Optics will never happen Then what do I do with the SP01's I just picked up? Well, I have 2 Shadows on order, 1 an ACCU. I guess when they come I'll just sell them being I can't shoot them in PO I mean it doesn't exist, and apparently it's never going to exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Think of it like schrodinger's cat. The box has yet to be opened. Once the BoD opens it then we will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) hmmm .... so there can be no facts about ideas? And your standard for being able to have this discussion (which you refer to as "moot") is that because a group of random humans called the "BoD of USPSA" has not yet sanctified this idea and blessed it with holy water it therefore is not "real" and therefore it cannot be talked about because it doesn't exist . Very interesting ... wrong, but very interesting ... Nope that is not what I said at all but, as you already have, feel free to parse it anyway you want. And just to help you out: moot mo͞ot/ adjective 1. subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision. "whether the temperature rise was mainly due to the greenhouse effect was a moot point" synonyms: debatable, open to discussion/question, arguable, questionable, at issue, open to doubt, disputable, controversial, contentious, disputed,unresolved, unsettled, up in the air "a moot point" Edited August 16, 2014 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 all these big words and humming and burning incense... funny..... Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I just hope the BOD slaps PO down so hard it goes away so we can get back to shooting the 3 popular divisions we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I just hope the BOD slaps PO down so hard it goes away so we can get back to shooting the 3 popular divisions we already have. Are you this pleasant in all your endeavors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I just hope the BOD slaps PO down so hard it goes away so we can get back to shooting the 3 popular divisions we already have. Agreed. But it is inevitable I believe. Maybe not this go around, but eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 . We ruined Revolver by allowing 8-Shot Minor, nearly every gun that anyone had is now useless, thank you. What gun and shooter won the last revo nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 . We ruined Revolver by allowing 8-Shot Minor, nearly every gun that anyone had is now useless, thank you. What gun and shooter won the last revo nationals? I don't know if this is accurate, but out of the top 40 shooters, only 4 were major. More important, at local matches, I haven't seen a 6 shooter since the 8 became "legal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 "legal" ? You mean legal. USPSA is a freestyle sport based on POWER among the other 2. If someone thinks minor scoring and capacity suits their abilities, they should have the choice of that risk/reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 "legal" ? You mean legal. USPSA is a freestyle sport based on POWER among the other 2. If someone thinks minor scoring and capacity suits their abilities, they should have the choice of that risk/reward. Ok, maybe I should have said recognized. I only said, "if this is accurate", because they don't list the gun used, only major or minor. 8 shot revolvers are scored minor, 6 shots are scored either major or minor. The other poster asked who won the last revolver national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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