Production optics

[BritinUSA]

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

[Racinready300ex]

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

If that is why production is so popular why do they want to allow even more upgrades to production guns?

[BritinUSA]

I'm not in favor of any changes to the existing Production rules. I'd like to know the source and reasons for the proposed changes.

[Jaycwebb]

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

I'd argue that by limiting restrictions in seeminly arbitrary ways you make the barrier to entry confusing and obfuscated to new shooters.

I completly disagree with your reasoning for production's popularity. Everyone I've talked to shoots it becase they like the 10/round puzzle solving aspect of the game. Many of them dislike the fact that X mod is functionally legal for one gun but illegal for another.

[Ssanders224]

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

I'd argue that by limiting restrictions in seeminly arbitrary ways you make the barrier to entry confusing and obfuscated to new shooters.

I completly disagree with your reasoning for production's popularity. Everyone I've talked to shoots it becase they like the 10/round puzzle solving aspect of the game. Many of them dislike the fact that X mod is functionally legal for one gun but illegal for another.

I definitely disagree with the bolded text.

Production is by far the largest division at our local matches, and I'd bet less than 5% of the shooters are shooting Production because of the reason you cited.

The rest are in the division because the gear is LESS EXPENSIVE, less intimidating, and there are more average skill level shooters to compete against.

[Jaycwebb]

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

I'd argue that by limiting restrictions in seeminly arbitrary ways you make the barrier to entry confusing and obfuscated to new shooters.

I completly disagree with your reasoning for production's popularity. Everyone I've talked to shoots it becase they like the 10/round puzzle solving aspect of the game. Many of them dislike the fact that X mod is functionally legal for one gun but illegal for another.

I definitely disagree with the bolded text.

Production is by far the largest division at our local matches, and I'd bet less than 5% of the shooters are shooting Production because of the reason you cited.

The rest are in the division because the gear is LESS EXPENSIVE, less intimidating, and there are more average skill level shooters to compete against.

You disagree that I've talked to people, and that they've said those things?

I've never shot your local match, you've never shot mine. Limited is the most popular game in my town. Open and Production are split for second and third (changes from season to season.)

As for the skill level in production; I'm not sure why your local group's skill level should allow you to infer said skill level applies to the division all around. Production, like every other division, has several GM, M, and A class shooters in my area. If that's the game you want to play, you will have competition.

As for less expensive; again I don't nessc buy that arguement. Limited and Production aren't that much different in costs if you look at comparable platforms.

Custom limited 2011- $3k

The "nuts" EAA/CZ Production type- $2k

Basic Glock 35 Limited gun- $1200(ish)

Basic STOCK handgun for production- $500

I guess limited is really expensive if you try to compare a Brazos Edge to a stock Glock 19.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Jaycwebb

[kmca]

Well, the shooters I've talked to usually goes like; Why do you chose to shoot Production? Because I wanted to give this IPSC thing a try and that's the gun I have

[motosapiens]

Well, the shooters I've talked to usually goes like; Why do you chose to shoot Production? Because I wanted to give this IPSC thing a try and that's the gun I have

Those are the newbies I see shooting limited minor with production-legal guns, lol.

It's probably different everywhere. I shoot production (and singlestack) because I like the reloading, I like the accuracy required by minor scoring, and I like that the guns and holsters look like guns you would actually carry instead of buck rogers rayguns. Plus I'd rather pay $25 for a magazine than $100, even if I need 7 or 8 of them.

[kmca]

Well, the shooters I've talked to usually goes like; Why do you chose to shoot Production? Because I wanted to give this IPSC thing a try and that's the gun I have

Those are the newbies I see shooting limited minor with production-legal guns, lol.

It's probably different everywhere. I shoot production (and singlestack) because I like the reloading, I like the accuracy required by minor scoring, and I like that the guns and holsters look like guns you would actually carry instead of buck rogers rayguns. Plus I'd rather pay $25 for a magazine than $100, even if I need 7 or 8 of them.

You also have to remember, in California (and a few other states) new gun owners are limited to 10 round magazines.

[motosapiens]

Well, the shooters I've talked to usually goes like; Why do you chose to shoot Production? Because I wanted to give this IPSC thing a try and that's the gun I have

Those are the newbies I see shooting limited minor with production-legal guns, lol.

It's probably different everywhere. I shoot production (and singlestack) because I like the reloading, I like the accuracy required by minor scoring, and I like that the guns and holsters look like guns you would actually carry instead of buck rogers rayguns. Plus I'd rather pay $25 for a magazine than $100, even if I need 7 or 8 of them.

You also have to remember, in California (and a few other states) new gun owners are limited to 10 round magazines.

Yer hockey team seems to be limited to only 2 or 3 rounds too.

[kmca]

That's not funny! I think you've stepped over the line.

How do I get a person banned

[theblacknight]

I'm a production shooter. I shoot no other division. The division has enough problems as it is because everyone seems to have their own idea of what they think production should be even tho they might not even shoot production.

I have no problem with this new idea.

However, it shouldn't be a subset of production nor share it's name,because that's dishonest as to why these type of guns are being built in the 1st place. It should be a subset of Open. Open Carry division.

Why Open Carry? People arnt just slapping a optic on their otherwise production legal carry gun and carrying it.

They always have back up irons, not production legal. They often times have NON Production legal things like full stipple jobs, total grip recontouring, mag rip slot cuts, full slide serrations over the whole dam slide, weapon lights/lazers, threaded barrels, mag button relief cuts, duty style mag wells like the Rogers grip adapter and Sentinel magwell, etc etc etc.

If open carry was innacted, ALL of those things should be legal in the division. If anything, the back up irons should be required if a dot is attached. Open Carry Division should allow AIWB placement of holsters unlike production division. Scoring should be Open division style. If you should a .357 Sig gun and you make major, you are major. You $ertainly paid for it .

Who hear really wants to have a 2nd production division and keep all the other rules?

If we are going to do this division,do it for the right reasons.

I really like where the philosophy of this post went.

-Must be slide mounted optic.

-Do whatever you want to the inside of the gun.

-Modify the outside however you want.

-No comps or magwells.

-10 round mags

-Production style holster rules.

I think one of the keys to the success of this format would be allowing people to show up with guns they have; and it's likely these guns (sans red dots) wouldn't otherwise be production legal.

No, mag wells would be legal, as would full loaded mags and limited style holster rules. Amoung the people who carry these type of guns, AIWB is popular.

By allowing all those modifications you are essentially recreating Modified division which became the most expensive division in IPSC. By limiting the customization it reduces the cost. Production is popular and one of the main reasons is that you can be competitive with an out of the box gun, all we are doing is adding a red dot.

If you want your proposal then submit it to USPSA, the current proposal is Prod/Optics not Modified or Open/Carry.

The current proposal has no basis in anything and is a logical failure. There is nothing "out of the box" about a RMR'ed Glock. Get over yourself.

You arnt reducing any cost. No one is requiring anyone to do anything to their guns. You are seriously trying to say that a 300-500 red dot plus the mill job is a ok "out of the box" mod, yet the tools to do a grip reduction and texture is "expensive like modified". How much is a soldiering iron and some sand paper?The sentinel magwell pictured above is 60$. The dot is the most expensive and non-productionesce part of the picture.

If the point of this division is to give the shooters that use and carry these type of guns a division, we shouldnt make the division outlaw their guns right out of the gate.

If the point of this division is to give people with failing eyes a option, its called OPEN DIVISION. Man up and shoot.

Edited August 15, 2014 by theblacknight

[mrpredictable]

I'm liking the concept of open carry (also the pun) a bit better than production optics, makes more logical sense for the type of firearms people have or are creating. Maybe have a shorter max mag length than limited, or flush fit +.1" only.

[Nimitz]

it's amazing to me how many times we have to repeat ourselves that open & PO have nothing to do with each other .... I won't repeat all the differences since those of you who are actually paying attention know them ... suffice is to say -- stay on point people.

Also, since the proposal from PO has successfully made it to the BoD for discussion/consideration, continuing this debate is pointless.

If you think PO is a good idea and plan to shoot it please contact your AD or other BoD members and let them know ... meanwhile I'll be looking on how best to add a red dot to my Shadow ... !!

Edited August 15, 2014 by Nimitz

[BritinUSA]

If you think PO is a good idea and plan to shoot it please contact your AD or other BoD members and let them know ... meanwhile I'll be looking on how best to add a red dot to my Shadow ... !!

You can mill out quite a bit out of the slide on a CZ/Tanfoglio and get that dot down to the same height as the front sight... If you can buy additional slides for CZ then you could mill one and leave the other as-is so you can still shoot Production with it.

The mounting plates are a cheaper option though the sight will sit a little higher. Its what I use on my XDM and it seems to work ok.

Edited August 15, 2014 by BritinUSA

[Nimitz]

That's a really clean setup .... I'll have to look at either a mount or a second slide since if the division doesn't stick I'd be back to shooting Production again ...

Are there other optics/mounts are people using as well?

Edited August 15, 2014 by Nimitz

[Nimitz]

Any reason you picked the Deltapoint vice the Cmore STS or RTS?

Also, who milled the slide for you?

[mosher]

Healey_0233_zpsa94d1143.jpg

How much that setup cost?

[BritinUSA]

I've no idea what it costs... I found that picture on the internet.. I'm using an XDM/DeltaPoint not a CZ.

The reason I went with the DeltaPoint is that I already had a frame mounted one on my Open gun, so I just swapped it out.

Edited August 15, 2014 by BritinUSA

[Jim Norman]

OK, Just to get my foot in the water here.

We ruined Revolver by allowing 8-Shot Minor, nearly every gun that anyone had is now useless, thank you. So, now we take one of the most popular divisions in USPSA and decide to muck around with it. Production works. Adding an optic is already allowed, we just call that OPEN!. Do what you want to do to your gun with very few restrictions.

Why not allow Compensators in Limited or Single Stack. I have a Colt 1911 Comp Commander I could shoot then. And maybe we should have a division for BHPs and then how about Broom-handle Mausers?

OK, back in my box, pot has been stirred.

[Jaycwebb]

OK, Just to get my foot in the water here.

We ruined Revolver by allowing 8-Shot Minor, nearly every gun that anyone had is now useless, thank you. So, now we take one of the most popular divisions in USPSA and decide to muck around with it. Production works. Adding an optic is already allowed, we just call that OPEN!. Do what you want to do to your gun with very few restrictions.

Why not allow Compensators in Limited or Single Stack. I have a Colt 1911 Comp Commander I could shoot then. And maybe we should have a division for BHPs and then how about Broom-handle Mausers?

OK, back in my box, pot has been stirred.

I feel like you didn't read the thread.

[Jim Norman]

Not all 600 posts. I've looked at bits and pieces. The object is to take a Production Gun and add ONLY a dot. No other mods that aren't already allowed.

Sorry, If that is right, it is still wrong. I'd rather see us bring back a modified Modified Division as that actually makes some sense. it is essentially an 'Open Division Carry Gun' Division. Optic Production just dilutes the field. All those clamoring for allowing all the modifications will keep at it.

Then again, I could easily be wrong.

[motosapiens]

Also, since the proposal from PO has successfully made it to the BoD for discussion/consideration, continuing this debate is pointless.

I disagree. Although the proposal was well-thought-out and presented, I don't think there's any reason the BOD has to accept or reject the proposal verbatim, so it's quite reasonable to discuss the various options in rules.

One thing that's clear from this discussion is that everyone has a different idea of what it should be, so in all likelihood, all 5 people that want to shoot this new division are going to have buy entirely new guns anyway, lol.

When I get an AC, I will contact him and let him know that I'm against the creation of any more divisions unless some of the existing ones are pared down or simplified.

[BritinUSA]

When I get an AD, I will contact him and let him know that I'm against the creation of any more divisions unless some of the existing ones are pared down or simplified.

The new Area Directors are listed here.

[Nimitz]

thx for the list!

Ok, let me modify my post a bit ...

A discussion on some of the details of PO rules may be ok but more posts about "I don't like it", just shoot open", blah, blah, blah .... are just more noise and irrelevant ...

The inventor of the Internet (Al Gore) would be turning over in his grave if he were to see how some people are using his Internet ...