Production optics

[bikerburgess]

On the weight what do we gain by using production list weight plus 5 oz over having a set division maximum?

I think it would help to keep the guns as stock as possible. If we had a division maximum then purchase the lightest gun and then install a tungsten guide rod in there to seriously reduce muzzle-flip.

The goal was to give the competitor enough leeway on the weight to install a scope not drastically alter the handling characteristics of the gun.

I understand what your goal was but you did not answer the question of what we (USPSA) would gain

do we get more new shooters or less?

do we get more existing shooters or less?

do we get a more competitive division or less?

do we get a division with one "best" gun or one with multiple competitive platforms?

if I like a heavy gun and I put a heavy guide rod in a glock instead of buying a CZ Shadow how would that make the division less competitive or affordable?

[BritinUSA]

What we gain with the 5 ounces is to keep the Prod/Optics closely aligned as possible to the spirit of Production Division, there is no maximum allowed weight in Production instead the weight is can be no more then 2 ounces over the factory weight.

We can't use that exact restriction due to the weight of the scope and the possibility of removing some material to accommodate the scope, so we have a 5 ounce +/- instead.

[bikerburgess]

Britin, I understand your goal, I understand the title of this thread being Production Optics, what I am trying to get at is a series of questions we should be using when we write a rule set for another division. The first thing to remember is this is not Production Division it would be a whole new division, we can take inspiration from production but we could choose to make it different in any way we want.

so I propose to look at every proposed rule with the following questions

Will this rule grow the sport (attract shooters from outside USPSA)

Will this rule attract shooters from inside USPSA (will existing shooters want to shoot the division more or less because of this rule)

Will this rule make the division more or less competitive (Stock II vs plain Glock or Stock II vs Glock with heavy guide rod and no finger grooves is one pair less competitive than the other? which pair?)

Will this rule give one platform unfair advantage (to go back a few pages only allowing factory slide cuts would give Smith a advantage ((yes FN has a cut slide but its on a 45))

Will this rule make sense to a non USPSA shooter (like stippling outside the lines means you have to shoot against the full race guns in open)

Will this rule make it easier or harder to officiate? (my example is one weight is easy vs Porduction list +5oz means I need to refer to a list and do math)

I Don't know how each question should be weighted but I think they need to be asked

Edited July 22, 2014 by bikerburgess

[zhunter]

so I propose to look at every proposed rule with the following questions

Will this rule grow the sport (attract shooters from outside USPSA)

> I totally expect the Division to grow participation from idle USPSA members, and yes I expect to draw new shooters

Will this rule attract shooters from inside USPSA (will existing shooters want to shoot the division more or less because of this rule)

> I think it would be unreasonable to not think some existing shooter would not come try it out

Will this rule make the division more or less competitive (Stock II vs plain Glock or Stock II vs Glock with heavy guide rod and no finger grooves is one pair less competitive than the other? which pair?)

> my opinion, any Glock should be allowed to play, same for M&P's etc... With an optic, sight radius is a moot point, bring in the long-slide Glocks

Will this rule give one platform unfair advantage (to go back a few pages only allowing factory slide cuts would give Smith a advantage ((yes FN has a cut slide but its on a 45))

Will this rule make sense to a non USPSA shooter (like stippling outside the lines means you have to shoot against the full race guns in open)

> my understanding is that stippling prohibitions is an Amidon thing, I personally don't see the big deal, but I've never shot production before either.

My answers are after the ">" as I'm on an iPad and have no clue how to use bold or colored text

[bikerburgess]

You answered for the division idea as a whole I was meaning look at each rule individually and ask the questions to decide if the rule is doing what we want it to do.

[zhunter]

You answered for the division idea as a whole I was meaning look at each rule individually and ask the questions to decide if the rule is doing what we want it to do.

Understood, I did the best I could. Frankly you would have to compare each and every combination to truly answer your question. We are talking lottery numbers of possibilities!

[bikerburgess]

You answered for the division idea as a whole I was meaning look at each rule individually and ask the questions to decide if the rule is doing what we want it to do.

Understood, I did the best I could. Frankly you would have to compare each and every combination to truly answer your question. We are talking lottery numbers of possibilities!

Yes it would be quite a bit of work to get it right, but I think that would be better to do it right and get the desired results.

also we really should write up a set of desired results what would we be trying to accomplish if we don't have a clear goal we will never know if any rule set has succeeded (I would say having a place to shoot a PO style gun is not a goal, we already have a division for that so we should really come up with something a little more specific)

[BritinUSA]

Why Production Optics ?

1. Production division is perhaps the fastest growing division within USPSA, existing members and new members alike are taking part in it. There are probably many reasons why this division is so popular but the most likely are:

i) It uses a type of gun that most people are likely to already own.

ii) It uses a type of gun that most people are able to afford.

2. Open and Limited Divisions allow for significant modifications to the gun, this drives up cost. Production has strict limits on modifications which helps to reduce the expense of obtaining a gun that can be competitive.

If we are to find ways to encourage more people to participate/join USPSA then I think it makes sense to look to the past and see what worked the best and in a 'down' economy what would seem to work best is an affordable way to participate.

What are the advantages to using Production Division as a model ?

1. We already have a list of approved guns.

2. We already have a list of rules that restrict modification and help to reduce cost.

We could use the model of a low-cost division and add the option of an optic which will only require modification to three of the existing Production rules (a series of rules that we know is working because the division is growing).

One alternative to Production Optics is a Modified division, this essentially is an 'anything goes as long as it fits in the box' division. This used to be popular in IPSC until someone figured out that the gun could fit in an angle in the box and allow a red-dot scope to be mounted. After this, the cost of such guns sky-rocketed and participation started to decline. A Modified division is an equipment race and with that will come increased costs.

Practical Shooting is an expensive sport, so to grow the sport effectively we need to find ways to control the cost of participation without hindering the use of competitive equipment. Production Optics provides this more so than a Modified Division would, it takes a working 'low cost' model and allows a simple modification that may enhance its appeal to Juniors and allow older competitors or those with vision issues to remain active in the sport.

[Chris iliff]

You answered for the division idea as a whole I was meaning look at each rule individually and ask the questions to decide if the rule is doing what we want it to do.

Understood, I did the best I could. Frankly you would have to compare each and every combination to truly answer your question. We are talking lottery numbers of possibilities!

Yes it would be quite a bit of work to get it right, but I think that would be better to do it right and get the desired results.

also we really should write up a set of desired results what would we be trying to accomplish if we don't have a clear goal we will never know if any rule set has succeeded (I would say having a place to shoot a PO style gun is not a goal, we already have a division for that so we should really come up with something a little more specific)

You lost me?

First, we do not have a place to compete with a Pro-Op gun, heads up, against other people with Pro-Op guns. To suggest otherwise is being a little thick don't you think?

So, there are thumb rests in limited and open, gee, since they share ONE of many characteristics, we should just mix everyone together and sort it out when the scores are posted? Actually, LIMITED AND OPEN HAVE SO MUCH MORE IN COMMON IT'D BE BETTER TO JUST GET RID OF LIMITED. LET THE SHOOTERS DECIDE ON SIGHTING DEVICES, EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THOSE TWO DIVISIONS ARE THE SAME, EXCEPT MAGAZINE LENGTH AND 9mm.

Yep, it's official.

Now the differences between Pro-Op and Open are HUGE, IN FACT IT IS EVERY SINGLE CHARACTERISTIC WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 1, THE OPTIC!!!!!!!!!

So to continue that it's the same, or even close, or that we already have that division, is being a little thick at this point.

I'm here all week!!

Edited July 22, 2014 by Chris iliff

[bikerburgess]

Chris,

When taking up a project I like to set out a set of goals that I can look at objectively and check my progress against.

what I said is making one of the goals to have a place to legally shoot a PO type gun is moot, because there already is one, yes I sad it you CAN shoot anything you want in OPEN.

So that means if you want a division where your a PO gun is COMPETITIVE that is a different goal.

If you want to grow the sport that is also a goal

If you want to have a division where only your version of what someone should use is legal that is also a goal

If you want a division that is inexpensive that is another goal

Once you spell out all your goals you can start constructing a rule set that will help you achieve your goals.

[bikerburgess]

Britin,

I don't agree that the Production rule set we have today does a good job of keeping costs down, too many people think they need to either buy a $1500 CZ or Tanfo or buy a $600 GLOCK and then spend another $500 on parts for it in order to be competitive, but a shooter that buys a lone wolf extended mag button to save a few bucks is no longer legal.

I like the idea of a keep it simple solution but I see just saying Production is the Keep it complicated answer.

I think if we want to attract the shooters that are currently shooting guns with optics on them we are going to need to give them more latitude to tinker than Production division allows. these are guys that are already modifying their guns

Ask yourself this, would you stop shooting Production or feel out gunned if we changed the rules on stippling and grip tape location? or if running a aftermarket slide stop was OK?

[The Antichrome]

This is why the "shoot it in Open" argument is, IMHO, ridiculous and insulting. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. For some, not saying you, to continue to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding of the issue.

I disagree completely with this assessment. Every part of it.

Care to try an explain? Chris seemed to hit the nail on the head exactly ....

I assume you mean this as an insult. Thats more sophomoric than anything I've said. ....

If I think that we already have too many Divisions and we already have a place for any gun that doesnt fit into a specific existing Division, I'm being ridiculous and insulting? I've been in this thread from the beginning, I've stated my opinion.

Open isnt a platform. It is the place where all platforms can be used. Thats not an insinuation. Some people get it backwards and think that there should be a Division for every little different setup. I dont believe I lack reasoning skills, or that I have sophomoric understanding of the issue.

I simply am not liberal enough to want to change things to accomodate every subsection of shooters.

I disagree with both of the justifications that have been promoted in this thread. Thats all.

[Nik Habicht]

So here is a box that is the same size as the existing Production Box (the gun is not to scale).

By adding a cutout for the scope we could actually use the same box for both Production and Production Optics by simply rotating the box so the opening is at the top for Prod Optics and at the bottom for Production.

ProdOptics Box 1.pngProdOptics Box 2.png

Careful with cutouts -- look at the mag gauge and at least Glock mags......

The 141.25 side works well, but the cut out on the 171.25 side presumes that you're starting with a longer tube -- it can't be used to assess the length of a Glock or S&W mag with a +10 base pad.......

Plus -- what are you going to do when I want to lay the gun in the box at an angle with the muzzle sticking out? Popping it in at an angle is currently legal.....

Probably better to build a bigger box with solid lines, than with a gap.....

[BritinUSA]

Plus -- what are you going to do when I want to lay the gun in the box at an angle with the muzzle sticking out? Popping it in at an angle is currently legal.....

Probably better to build a bigger box with solid lines, than with a gap.....

better ???

7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope. The gun must be placed within the box with the slide parallel to the longest side of the box.

[Nik Habicht]

Plus -- what are you going to do when I want to lay the gun in the box at an angle with the muzzle sticking out? Popping it in at an angle is currently legal.....

Probably better to build a bigger box with solid lines, than with a gap.....

better ???

7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope. The gun must be placed within the box with the slide parallel to the longest side of the box.

No -- because again it separates us from what Production does......

Besides -- why do we constrain options in that manner? Why fix something that isn't broken -- the box having four sides in this case....

And -- no problem, I'll stick the mag and magwell out the hole......

[Nik Habicht]

If two boxes are too cumbersome, we could stick with the current box -- yep, the guns would need to be smaller to fit.....

[BritinUSA]

The pictures clearly show how the gun would have to fit in the box.

[Sarge]

The pictures clearly show how the gun would have to fit in the box.

The picture would not be enough Brit. There would need to be specific guidance on how the gun must be put in the box. Nik is right, you could put the gun in upside down and have a magwell and longer mag.

[Sarge]

I still think it is expecting a lot out of HQ when it is said we need to come up with ideas to submit to USPSA so they can get member input before making the rules for PO. Looks like the whole 8 shot revo thing skipped that part from what I understand.

[ZackJones]

First, we do not have a place to compete with a Pro-Op gun, heads up, against other people with Pro-Op guns. To suggest otherwise is being a little thick don't you think?

Technically that's not correct. I know we're talking about USPSA here but there's a provision in the steel challenge rules that permits tier 1 (local) and tier 2 (state/sectional) matches to shoot "wildcat" divisions. Production optics could be shot if the MD recognized that division. From the rules:

"A.6 Wildcat Divisions: Tier 1 and 2 matches may allow "wildcat" divisions to compete in the match. For example, Back-up guns, 5-shot revolver, etc. This division may not be recognized in Tier 3 or 4 events."

As a steel challenge MD I'm going to start offering this division to our shooters. Too bad my C.O.R.E. isn't production legal .

[Nik Habicht]

The pictures clearly show how the gun would have to fit in the box.

How many discussions have you had with competitors as an RO, CRO, or RM about equipment legality?

If you think I'm annoying, wait until you're working as chronodude at a major with a box that doesn't have four complete sides......

[ctay]

I'm no range lawyer but how about this:

7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope. The gun must be placed within the box with the scope aligned with the opening of the box as shown in the picture (reference picture number here).

[Chris iliff]

This is why the "shoot it in Open" argument is, IMHO, ridiculous and insulting. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. For some, not saying you, to continue to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding of the issue.

I disagree completely with this assessment. Every part of it.

Care to try an explain? Chris seemed to hit the nail on the head exactly ....

I assume you mean this as an insult. Thats more sophomoric than anything I've said. ....

If I think that we already have too many Divisions and we already have a place for any gun that doesnt fit into a specific existing Division, I'm being ridiculous and insulting? I've been in this thread from the beginning, I've stated my opinion.

Open isnt a platform. It is the place where all platforms can be used. Thats not an insinuation. Some people get it backwards and think that there should be a Division for every little different setup. I dont believe I lack reasoning skills, or that I have sophomoric understanding of the issue.

I simply am not liberal enough to want to change things to accomodate every subsection of shooters.

I disagree with both of the justifications that have been promoted in this thread. Thats all.

I can be sophomoric, sorry.

I don't want to change things to accommodate every subset of guns. I didn't see a huge upswell of support for 8 shot minor Revolver, but somehow that got passed. And again, I dare someone to show me a swelling of membership #'s and new additions to USPSA as a result.

But, try this on and maybe you'll see why my patience runs thin.........

I think some are missing the point of Pro -Op.

I think the "slide mounted optic" somehow short circuits normal neural pathways in otherwise seemingly intelligent people. (Sophomoric line)

Tell me, other than the Optic, what are the other similarities between Pro-Op and Open?

Tell me, what are the similarities between Limited and Open? Just about everything except 1, the Optic.

See the point?

Pro-Op and Open are about as similar as a cat and a dog. Yeah, they both have 4 legs and a tail, can bite, have fur, piss and poop, but really, they are two separate animals /divisions by any intelligent standard.

Again, this division has the potential to ADD SHOOTERS NOT CURRENTLY INVOLVED. Yes, some will switch, some might even start here and migrate to open.. Some might migrate from open to Pro-Op.. But, this division has the potential to bring in new shooters. Again, kinda hard to get a guy to come run his carry gun with a slide mounted optic and have him compete against true open guns. He'd be better off in the over all standings using a Limited gun. I don't think the drubbing he'd receive weekend after weekend would be conducive to longevity..

IMHO these guys will come if we build it..

Pro-Op and Open are so dissimilar, THEY AREN'T EVEN CLOSE, a SEPARATE/NEW DIVISION is WARRANTED.

My goal is and always will be to grow the sport and keep USPSA RELEVANT and on the cutting edge within the handgun competition world.

I like the open box. I think we could have two boxes, the same as always for Production,......and a new box, like one shown for Pro-Op. Of course some pics would need to be done showing proper placement, maybe a line or two written, but that'd be pretty easy I'd think.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Chris iliff

[BritinUSA]

Taking some suggestions from other posts (thanks to all for the suggestions);

7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4.00" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope.

Procedure: The unloaded gun with an empty magazine inserted must be placed within the box with the barrel parallel to the longest side of the box with the scope aligned with the opening of the box as shown in the picture (see below). Note: All magazines must comply.

13. Optical/electronic sights permitted - Yes.

18. Weight - Within five (5) ounces of factory specification.

[RIIID]

You don't need a full blown Open gun to shoot Open. You don't even need an optic or comp, one barrel port or a magazine that's too long or a gun that doesn't fit the box or weighs too much. The rules are pretty clear Open Div. is the only one that can have an optic. Jerry B. shot the Open Nationals one year('98/'99 ?) with iron sights and finished in the top 5 if I remember correctly. Right now to shoot a "Production" gun with an optic is Open Div. only. If you really want to show how great of an idea this is show the BOD the increase in Open Div. participation first. By entering minor that will be enough to break out the PO's, not many purposely enter Open using minor ammo.

Probably 99% of new shooters will be at the bottom of the score sheet until they get a handle on this sport. Besides they will be competing against like classified shooters anyway no matter what Div. they are in.

Has anyone even took a quick poll of the BOD to see if they would even entertain the idea at a board meeting? This would be a lot of wasted energy to this point if they won't even discuss it.

Rich

On another note we get new shooters every year but we loose about the same number of shooters every year. Membership stays about the same number and the inactive number grows we are at what 85,000 member number and about 20,000 to 25,000 active members.

Edited July 24, 2014 by RIIID