Help! Multiple gun problems

[GuildSF4]

Sounds good. Hope you find something out. I understand the frustration (see the STI grip FTF thread), took me months to figure that one out, and I fix machines for a living.

[SmittyFL]

Oh Fo, Fo, Fo.....my man Fo,

I've been holding my breath not saying anything, hoping against hope it was just a one time thing, a fluke, surely this isn't coming back. I had a thousand excuses why it just happened this once, nothing regular, I can handle it. It's cause I just cleaned it, or I haven't cleaned it, or I put too much oil on. No, I'm not talking about falling off the wagon, the follow devil is creeping back in my life.

Definitely much better with the RM out, but it seems to be getting more regular. Still nothing at all like it was, but annoying none-the-less. I tried changing out recoil springs to a fresh one, but that didn't seem to change anything. Same ol, same ol, close target hammering. I've checked the poundage and it doesen't seem to have lightened up any. I don't know if the trigger contact surfaces could be wearing out already, or what. That's my only guess.

I might see if I can find someone to lighten up the slide. That's the only thing I can think to do. That or take up revolver or muzzle loading. Maybe it's just National's looming on the horizon that causes this.

I'm about to give up.

Keep an eye out for an STI over the berm near you!!!

[MikeFoley]

Smitty,

PM Sent.

There will be a follow-up on this thread, but I need more testing. There is hope!

[MikeFoley]

It has been over 3 weeks since I last reported my issues that have plagued me for over a year. I sent my gun to Benny Hill at Triangle Shooting Sports as many of you had recommended in the beginning. Benny had contacted me on the forum and agreed to look at my gun free of charge, and turn it around fast so that I could have it back in time to learn the timing and shoot it through Nationals. I sent it out on Monday, he got it on Tuesday and called me. Later the same day he called me with the list, a long one, of the things he did to improve the overall smoothness and timing of my gun, which he called "a x?0-!#% mess". All of these repairs and parts replacements made sense too. He shipped it out the next day, and I got it on Thursday. I have put 500-600 rounds through it with plenty of fast, up-close shots with no malfunctions. I hesitate to call it cured, but it is much better than ever before in timing, trigger, and feel. It was especially smooth today, and I look forward to Nationals.

I want to thank Benny Hill for his friendly attitude, fast turn-around, and excellent service-all at a price much less than I expected. He sent me a message the other day I have to share, "Kick ass & shoot fast A’s". Thanks again Benny, I hope to do just that.

[MikeFoley]

Over 1000 rounds with no half-cock between shots!

[GuildSF4]

Excellent. Any details on work performed?

[MikeFoley]

In my case:

New Hammer with 25% more engagement surface(still feels smooth too)

Polished sear and disconnect for more positive movement

Lighter Mainspring

Lighter Recoil Spring and Buff

Trigger area relieved on frame and grip frame and polished

Feed ramp re-cut

Disconnected grip safety

Each gun stands alone, and Benny can decide what they need, that is the magic.

[Anthony Lombardo]

In my case:

New Hammer with 25% more engagement surface(still feels smooth too)

Polished sear and disconnect for more positive movement

Lighter Mainspring

Lighter Recoil Spring and Buff

Trigger area relieved on frame and grip frame and polished

Feed ramp re-cut

Disconnected grip safety

Each gun stands alone, and Benny can decide what they need, that is the magic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just imagine,

If you had sent it last year you would be a GM by now!

Really, this is an interesting case and I am glad to see a good pistolsmith come to the rescue.

[the hammer]

I was hoping to find a solution for my hammer follow with this thread but trying to send my custom built STI (almost new 2000rds) down to Benny Hill is very difficult due to permits. My smith has tried to help me with this problem but no luck. Does anyone know if Benny Hill or another good smith will be at your uspsa nats in Sept 08 during the limited or limited 10 matches that could give it a look over and find a solution?

Thanks

[IronEqualizer]

In my case:

New Hammer with 25% more engagement surface(still feels smooth too)

Polished sear and disconnect for more positive movement

Lighter Mainspring

Lighter Recoil Spring and Buff

Trigger area relieved on frame and grip frame and polished

Feed ramp re-cut

Disconnected grip safety

Each gun stands alone, and Benny can decide what they need, that is the magic.

I read all 9 pages of this thread.......Is this the end of the story? What is happening now? Same trigger job still working? Cmon man your killing me. This was like reading a novel and finding out the last page is missing.

AL

[MikeFoley]

In my case:

New Hammer with 25% more engagement surface(still feels smooth too)

Polished sear and disconnect for more positive movement

Lighter Mainspring

Lighter Recoil Spring and Buff

Trigger area relieved on frame and grip frame and polished

Feed ramp re-cut

Disconnected grip safety

Each gun stands alone, and Benny can decide what they need, that is the magic.

I read all 9 pages of this thread.......Is this the end of the story? What is happening now? Same trigger job still working? Cmon man your killing me. This was like reading a novel and finding out the last page is missing.

AL

Same gun worked 100% until I sold it and it is still running today. My current gun has only had this issue twice, and one time I am sure I bounced it.

[IronEqualizer]

Who built the new one and did you change your style of manipulating the trigger? Do you think you grew out of it as a shooter? What I mean is, I am at, where you were when this started. I should make A with the next update. Did your shooting maturity seem to cure the problem?

AL

[MikeFoley]

Who built the new one and did you change your style of manipulating the trigger? Do you think you grew out of it as a shooter? What I mean is, I am at, where you were when this started. I should make A with the next update. Did your shooting maturity seem to cure the problem?

AL

The new gun is a Bedell Custom. I grew a bit as a shooter, and the new gun cycles much different, faster and flatter. I am forever grateful to Benny, and would not hesitate to send a gun to him any time. The fact is, if you have the issue now, then do what it takes to make it go away now. If you find later you don't need this fix, like when you get a new gun, then great.

[MikeFoley]

Well, well, well, looks like my old friend Mr. Hammer Follow has returned. Yesterday I had it once on stage 3, and 3 times on stage 4, and switched to a different gun for stage 5. I gave up 39 points altogether on the last three stages alone and was third by 37 points to the winner. I put it on the pull guage at home, and it is down under 1.5# now, so it has slipped a .25 in two years, but I cannot force it to follow without shooting it. I am hopeful that it is just hammer and sear problems, and not the return of the beast that plagued me so bad before. Will update here for all of those who follow this, as I know it is still happening to others.

Edited December 7, 2009 by fomeister

[MikeFoley]

Just got inside the gun for the first time, honestly. It has a tremendous amount of gunk in the trigger group, the mainspring cap is deeper than it started out, and I am going to clean it and replace the springs before I ship it off to the smith. Chuck had some insight on this, and I will report my progress.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Does the pistol have a titanium hammer strut and mainspring cap? You may just need to tweak the sear spring a little and call it good. Also look at your sear and hammer under a magnifier to see what they look like. If you can't tell what's going on give Benny a call Thanks, Eric

[MikeFoley]

OK, here's what I did:

New Mainspring (old one a coil shorter in the same weight)

New Ti Mainspring cap (old one deep and shiny in the shape of the strut)

New Ti Strut (old one rounded and short)

New recoil spring (old one 3 coils shorter in the same weight)

more pressure on left and center fingers of the sear spring

1/4 turn more over travel in the trigger

Feels different, but won't be able to shoot it until Saturday.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: How do the sear and hammer look? Also forgot to tell ya to check the sear spring for cracks and wear marks. Thanks, Eric

[MikeFoley]

They look perfect, no peening, no rounding, no marks much at all, and the hooks are deep too.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Sounds like you may have it underhand. Thanks, Eric

[AriM]

you might want to check something really quick....cock the hammer fully.....assume the normal grip with your strong hand...with your weak hand hold the hammer....pull the trigger and let your weak hand guide the hammer down.....do you feel a slight notch or "catch" on the half cock position....if so you have to little over travel in your trigger....if you have run the gun with that condition, chances are you have damaged the hammer/sear contact points.....it's possible that your sear face was slightly catching on the half cock position and is now no longer "neutral"....look at the engagement surfaces under a high power magnifier...if you don't have a jig, install the hammer/sear on the outside of your pistol (using the stock pins)....look through the magnifier and see what your hammer sear contact looks like in BOTH positions....not a solution, but a place to start maybe....good luck....

[MikeFoley]

you might want to check something really quick....cock the hammer fully.....assume the normal grip with your strong hand...with your weak hand hold the hammer....pull the trigger and let your weak hand guide the hammer down.....do you feel a slight notch or "catch" on the half cock position....if so you have to little over travel in your trigger....if you have run the gun with that condition, chances are you have damaged the hammer/sear contact points.....it's possible that your sear face was slightly catching on the half cock position and is now no longer "neutral"....look at the engagement surfaces under a high power magnifier...if you don't have a jig, install the hammer/sear on the outside of your pistol (using the stock pins)....look through the magnifier and see what your hammer sear contact looks like in BOTH positions....not a solution, but a place to start maybe....good luck....

There is no half cock position. Here is a theory I got from a really good smith out there who has a GM shooter who is having the same old issue:

"I have talked at great length with XXXXXXX about his trigger technique. He, like most of the shooters afflicted with this malady started shooting with Glocks, and switched to 1911/2011's. It is usually found in good shooters who have fast fingers, and ride the trigger a lot (reference TGO's stuff on the subject) Most of these guys are very aware of the trigger "reset" point, and try not to release the trigger any more than any more than absolutely necessary for the parts to reset. I believe the problem is caused by a combination of speed and a short reset. If you play with a gun a little, and find the reset point...hold the trigger as close to that point as possible....then rack the slide briskly....presto, the hammer usually follows. I think that if the shooter has already reached the "reset point" when the slide finishes closing, the disconnector can trip the sear as it comes up. If the trigger is held in that precise position, the disconnector only has minimal space to reset into as it comes up behind the sear. Since this is all happening very fast, I also suspect the the hammer may also not be fully seated on the sear yet when this occurs, making the sear that much easier to move. I have combated this problem with his guns in the usual ways... a lot of engagement , more overtravel, more pre-travel. It has been somewhat successful, but every time I think we have it licked, it pops back up."

Trouble is, I don't think I ride the reset, so some camera work may be necessary to make sure. I wish more people were aware of this issue, because it isn't classic hammer follow from damaged parts. I talked briefly with Phil yesterday, and he is shooting a Production gun and is glad it doesn't do this. Not where I want to go, but this can be frustrating. I really cannot wait to get to the range and see if all the slop and pull and parts make the gun time different enough to stop it for a while.

[DougCarden]

fwiw......

I had a friend take some high speed photos of me shooting some steel stages, and I was really surprised to see that I was slapping the crap out of the trigger. My finger was hitting the inside front of the trigger guard, but would only believe it when I saw it.....

I would have someone videotape or do some highspeed photos to figure out how you are riding the trigger and how you reset the trigger itself. You may need to bump the weight up for more postive reset.....just a thought..

Good luck, this type of malf just plain sucks......

DougC

[AriM]

you might want to check something really quick....cock the hammer fully.....assume the normal grip with your strong hand...with your weak hand hold the hammer....pull the trigger and let your weak hand guide the hammer down.....do you feel a slight notch or "catch" on the half cock position....if so you have to little over travel in your trigger....if you have run the gun with that condition, chances are you have damaged the hammer/sear contact points.....it's possible that your sear face was slightly catching on the half cock position and is now no longer "neutral"....look at the engagement surfaces under a high power magnifier...if you don't have a jig, install the hammer/sear on the outside of your pistol (using the stock pins)....look through the magnifier and see what your hammer sear contact looks like in BOTH positions....not a solution, but a place to start maybe....good luck....

There is no half cock position. Here is a theory I got from a really good smith out there who has a GM shooter who is having the same old issue:

"I have talked at great length with XXXXXXX about his trigger technique. He, like most of the shooters afflicted with this malady started shooting with Glocks, and switched to 1911/2011's. It is usually found in good shooters who have fast fingers, and ride the trigger a lot (reference TGO's stuff on the subject) Most of these guys are very aware of the trigger "reset" point, and try not to release the trigger any more than any more than absolutely necessary for the parts to reset. I believe the problem is caused by a combination of speed and a short reset. If you play with a gun a little, and find the reset point...hold the trigger as close to that point as possible....then rack the slide briskly....presto, the hammer usually follows. I think that if the shooter has already reached the "reset point" when the slide finishes closing, the disconnector can trip the sear as it comes up. If the trigger is held in that precise position, the disconnector only has minimal space to reset into as it comes up behind the sear. Since this is all happening very fast, I also suspect the the hammer may also not be fully seated on the sear yet when this occurs, making the sear that much easier to move. I have combated this problem with his guns in the usual ways... a lot of engagement , more overtravel, more pre-travel. It has been somewhat successful, but every time I think we have it licked, it pops back up."

Trouble is, I don't think I ride the reset, so some camera work may be necessary to make sure. I wish more people were aware of this issue, because it isn't classic hammer follow from damaged parts. I talked briefly with Phil yesterday, and he is shooting a Production gun and is glad it doesn't do this. Not where I want to go, but this can be frustrating. I really cannot wait to get to the range and see if all the slop and pull and parts make the gun time different enough to stop it for a while.

we are talking about 2 totally different things....I am talking about a mechanical function of ALL properly built 1911's....there is absolutely a half cock position...my suggestion has ZERO to do with technique and what you are doing during live fire....it is just a simple test to determine if your sear face is being damaged, by too little over travel....try what I am describing....just grab the pistol as usual (unloaded of course) cock it back all the way....grab the hammer with your weak hand and pull the trigger.....now slowly guide the hammer down to it's resting position (while still holding the trigger down).....if you feel a notch or ANY binding on the way down, you have too little over travel.....you would never notice this during normal dry fire or live fire, it is just a mechanical test.....if you have fired your gun under this condition, chances are you have damaged you sear face and hammer hooks beyond repair....at the very least you no longer have a neutral hammer/sear lock-up....this could lead to some of the problems you are describing.....if this happens to you on other guns, which are totally unrelated to yours (totally different builds with totally different parts and are working properly for their owner) then I think you are "bumping the trigger"....

I think the solution for riding your reset point, would be LESS take-up and MORE over travel....that way you aren't riding ANY pre load in the trigger...that's how I have my trigger set-up....it's a 3 pound trigger, but feels like a much lighter set-up, because there is very little (if ANY) take-up...and there is just enough over travel to prevent damage (and a tiny turn less to take into account that metals expand and contract with heat).....the last thing I want to do is ruin my trigger parts and work....

so the way I have my trigger set-up I just think about squeezing and it breaks...with NO take-up...that way I don't "ride" the trigger at all....there would be no benefit....now I could see how this could be a bit nerve racking if you had a one pound trigger, but I know that me sneezing isn't going to break a 3 pound pull...at the same time with no take up (very little) I just think about it, squeeze with my weak hand a bit and roll my strong hand trigger finger....so trigger actuation isn't about riding some specific point....it's simply governed by how far my trigger is allowed to travel (which isn't far)....I would love to show you this in a video....there is simply no reset point to ride....the trigger is an on/off/binary kind of thing....

Edited December 10, 2009 by AriM