Help! Multiple gun problems

[MikeFoley]

After installing the short trigger, and having to do some trimming of burrs, I realized that all of the moving parts, except the trigger bow, were in steel, and the trigger was totally in plastic. This reinforces the idea that the plastic grip must not be too flexible in relationship to the steel frame. I am trying a short trigger to aide me to come off the trigger better. Hopefully I won't learn to do the same thing with a shorter trigger. I also have added little more trigger return pressure, but it made my trigger 2.5 lbs. instead of 2.

Today, the question came up on whether I should try to get it to malfuntion, or let it happen on its own. Not sure which way to go, but I could put 1000 rounds through the gun and not be sure it is fixed. I may have to try to get it to happen just to be able to sleep at night. In the recent past, I could get it within 6 rounds or so, but not always immediately after changing parts.

[SmittyFL]

Hey Fo,

I couldn't remember, have you tried an unmodified grip yet?

I've still been playing with the open gun, but when I go back to hell in a month or so, a brand new grip was going to be my first course of action. As much as I prefer a cut down stippled grip, I could learn to live with a plain jane if it solves or limits the problem. I was also thinking about the short trigger, maybe the short flat.

[MikeFoley]

Smitty,

I have been considering that course of action next. My first grip was the factory that I cut two rows of checkering from and slightly undercut the triggerguard. I didn't have the problem back then. I had that grip done on the gun by Bedell. I broke the triggerguard (my fault) then installed a already finished grip, also by Bedell, just like the previous one (ouch, expensive lesson).

I handled a factory gun yesterday, and it felt fine, so I may consider going back to an unmodified grip. One of the local guys offered to trade with me. Let me know how that works for you. I will report on the short trigger. Do you think I shoud grip and rip to try to get the short trigger to malf?

[diehli]

Smitty,

I have been considering that course of action next. My first grip was the factory that I cut two rows of checkering from and slightly undercut the triggerguard. I didn't have the problem back then. I had that grip done on the gun by Bedell. I broke the triggerguard (my fault) then installed a already finished grip, also by Bedell, just like the previous one (ouch, expensive lesson).

I handled a factory gun yesterday, and it felt fine, so I may consider going back to an unmodified grip. One of the local guys offered to trade with me. Let me know how that works for you. I will report on the short trigger. Do you think I shoud grip and rip to try to get the short trigger to malf?

I think you should try and get the gun to malf.

BTW, I switched to a short trigger also, but not 'cause of malfunctions. For some reason it seemed right. The standard trigger fits me perfectly.

[SmittyFL]

I'm not sure. I haven't been able to produce it on demand as you have, but I haven't tired much either. I guess if you can produce it on demand, go ahead and try it.

Are you doing anything out of the norm to make it happen? Like gripping it from an odd angle or something, or are you just gripping and ripping like you normally would at a close target?

[gmshtr]

I used to have this problem of hammer follow. Although it still can happen (not during a match), I just pushed the middle arm on the leaf spring forward to heavy up the reset. After combining that with my already bad trigger job, I was left with a 4lb hitchy trigger pull. It's horrible, it's heavy, but it works!

I can make just about any hammer follow, and I'm still looking for someone to fix me up with a decent 3 - 3.5lb trigger pull that works EVERY time. Until then, I'll keep the crap that seems to be working! Probably not the suggestion you were looking for, but priority one: the gun HAS TO WORK!

Phil

[Flexmoney]

Wow...I just reread this whole 8 page thread. You have been fighting this thing for too long. I hope the short trigger helps.

A couple of things I noticed (I took notes this time)...

shooter:

I don't want a steel gun...the modular is great except...fast splits brought me this far (I got a chuckle out of that one)...happens on close hoser targets...I grip it and rip it...only one sight picture...haven't dulicated it with a looser grip

gun:

Robbie says a longer engagement might help...Dawson says to check for spring rubbing on grip frame...someone else (I quit taking notes) mentioned that some smiths put some tape in there to keep the spring from moving side-to-side...you have a sub two pound trigger...pins holes might be out...after market grip work

Clearly, the shooter is not matching up with the gun. We have a gun that may, or may not, have issues. And, maybe it is all guns of this style that have these issues. Maybe not.

It does seem like there is an opportunity for "tolerence stacking". Where a bunch of little things add up to a bigger issue.

Then, throw in a shooter that can't get away from death gripping the gun, and seems hell bent on the belief that fast splits are the answer...well, that is more stuff to pile on.

Phil said it right: ...priority one: the gun HAS TO WORK!

I would expand that a little and say that the shooting system has to work. I define shooting system as the gun, magazines, ammo, etc. (these are the mechanical aspects)...and, the stance, grip, tension, midset, ect. (these are the shooter aspects).

These things form the shooting system. They have to work. They are the base foundation that we build our shooting upon. If you can't get this stuff right...and then forget about it...then you can't really move on to the tough stuff. You end up wasting attention and resources (time, money, etc) worrying if you are going to have a malfunction.

[SmittyFL]

All valid points Flex, but where does that leave us? I've tried Phil's fix of cranking in spring and that didn't work for me. My problem seems less frequent than Fo's but I havent' been shooting limited since the Nat's. When it happened though it sure was at the worse possible time. At Tenn. and in Barry. Changing the way you shoot is easier said than done.

The way I see it is this: I pull the trigger when my sights tell me it's cool to do so. I grip the gun and pull the trigger as needed depending on the shot. I also grip the gun as needed to get the follow up shot off asap. If it is a 50 yd 8 inch plate my grip and trigger technique are entirely different than if it were a 3 ft. full IPSC target. Obviously that's the same for everybody. But I can't fathom staring down a 3 ft. target and thinking between while looking at my sights to wait a sec.

I don't have the answer yet, it may be go back to a para. I don't know yet. If I could afford another gun, I'd buy it this afternoon just to satisfy myself. I'm not to frustrated right now because I've been shooting open for a while. We'll see when I go back in a month or so.

I wish to hell someone would tool up an aluminum or cast iron grip for the STI.

[mcoliver]

Hold on. Do you guys mean this happens more on limited guns than on open guns (where you'd expect to get cosistently low splits)?

[MikeFoley]

Nice summary Flex. I really like the term "tolerance stacking". That is a concept that applies to alost any complex situation. A lot of contingencies in this particular issue for sure. I hope I can get back into tolerance within the new trigger and maybe a new grip.

I do understand that fast splits are not the skill required, but it is so hard to stop doing this up close (Smitty agrees), it is reflex and adrenaline based with 5 yards for me. I can control myself all day long in most matches, and my accuracy is usually more than 90% of the points available, so other than gun malfunctions, fast splits certainly haven't hurt me.

The thing I need most is faster transitions. I learned a great deal from Sevigny about footwork and planning, and I am practicing those.

I don't crush the grip BTW, but if I stop during fast close shots, I find that I am gripping harder than when I started (see Smitty on changing style to meet target).

The frequency of my issue is probably because I shoot over 1000 rounds per month through this one gun only for a year now. Lots of guys do this, but it is the shooter and the system as you said earlier. That is why I did not send my gun to the gunsmiths recommended to me, because I couldn't send my ammo and myself with it.

One more thing that has been overlooked until recently. Vikings501 suggested that just maybe, a different recoil system or lightnened slide could make the cycle time faster and rule out the possibility that I am firing the gun slightly out of battery and that is making the hammer go to half at the same time the slide closes. He suggests this because he has seen me get .10 splits with multiple guns, and thinks maybe I am going a little faster than the gun, a concept that I got laughed at for in the begining when I suggested I may be outrunning my gun with my load and my finger.

Thanks again Flex for the summary.

Lets keep going until we solve this.

[MikeFoley]

MColiver,

Smitty has done it with his open gun, and I do not have an open gun. I have only shot a couple of them, and I couldn't get fast splits at all, probably because the strange (to me) recoil and noise emitting from them.

[mcoliver]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Hope you find some light soon.

Btw, what recoil spring weight are you using? Ever tried going heavier like 14# maybe just to re-time yourself with the gun?

[SmittyFL]

It has happened with my open gun, but only once. I haven't been shooting much recently though.

Lightening the slide was suggested to me also. One of the things Rob said was the timing of the slide slamming home a the same time you're doing something and when the moons are aligned it causes it to follow. That may be one reason it doesn't happen as much with the open gun, the slide is lighter and coming forward slower.

Mcoliver may have an idea with changing recoil systems to "re-time" the gun. I'm currently using the heavy recoil master in limited and a hybrid recoil master in open.

Fo, are you using a recoil master?

[MikeFoley]

yes, the heavy one

[diehli]

KISS.

Have you been able to make guns w/ standard rods and springs choke?

[MikeFoley]

I only have the one Limited gun, and all of the other STI's I have shot with any regularity also had the same heavy RM in them(2 of which I referenced as having the same issue in my hands). So I suppose the answer is not enough experience to tell.

My single stack has a rod and spring, but I have only fired it about 200 times, and seldom in the same scenarios that invite the malfunction as I do not shoot it in matches. I have a full length rod and spring (17.5#) in my parts box, and if I have a reverse plug that fits, I could try it if the recent trigger change doesn't work. I really like the way my gun recoils on all of the shots where I track the front sight. My hits are close together too.

Thanks for another possibility. BTW, my gun came with this RM and it has about 12000 rounds on it +/-.

[Flexmoney]

fomeister,

The difference between your shooting and Smitty's is that he is guiding his shooting with vision, you are admitting to double-tapping (no sight picture for second shot).

One of the big lessons I took away from the Nationals this year was that when I let my vision guide my shooting...I shot with a lot less tension.

but it is so hard to stop doing this up close (Smitty agrees), it is reflex

Sure.

I'm not sure how important your shooting is too you. But, you gotta decide how much you want to solve this problem. If it means doing what it takes to train yourself to respond differently...then that is what you will have to do.

Close targets are tension monsters. But, you control your actions.

I might be over-simplifying it, but here is how I see it:

1. You can change the shooter.

2. You can change the equipment.

3. You can keep having the same issues.

(If I were looking to change the equipment, I'd go with a standard grip, 4-leaf spring, more over-travel and pre-travel, and I would check the amount of disconnector travel...all that, or get a steel gun or a Glock)

[SmittyFL]

I'm not sure about that Flex. I know what I said in my previous post but maybe I should be more clear. I don't think I see my sights on the second shot of an open target inside 3 yards. It's just muscle memory as to where I know the gun and sights are going to be. I have a hard time believing anyone consciously sees their sights with .15 splits or under.

For example there is a drill I do with a 12 inch square plate at 10 yards. I draw and fire two as part of my warm up drills of a practice session. If I were to quarantee two hits, then yeah I see my sights for both shots. But just screwing around, my goal is draw and get two hits in 1.00 sec flat. When I hit it which is less often than not, it's usually around a .80-.85 draw and .15ish split. I don't think I see my sights doing that, not consciously for sure.

You can use the dreaded "double-tap" word or whatever but for "in your face targets" I use a target focus...the rest is muscle memory. Which is why the firm grip is such a part of my shooting, I have to grip the gun like that to ensure it's gonna come back where it's supposed to be.

IMO

[mcoliver]

Smitty, I think you can see at that speed. However, it doesn't mean you're still hitting from the second shot but you can deifinitely know you missed. When you guarantee the shot you're already doing more than just seeing it.

I've got comfy .20 splits and can crank off some .17's. But, man, does the tension get higher at that small difference. My objective now a days is to start getting comfy with the .17. So it'll be a long time before I start seeing the probs you guys are getting. Besides my gun is all-steel.

[MikeFoley]

Flex, Smitty accurately described my technique as well. I do not take a single sight picture beyond 5 yards, I call every shot. However, full size targets at 5 or less get what Smitty called "target focus". Todd Jarrett talks about target focus and seeing the sights and when to do each. I clearly have better accuracy than my faster friends, and sometimes my hit factors are higher because of it(though the sport sometimes rewards only speed IMO). I often get all A's or only give up 1-2 points. I have exhibited the discipline to see the sights enough to win 2 Glocks at GSSF matches last year, and this years match is pending results. I am failing to train the close fast shot out of my game somehow, though.

To answer your question, my shooting is very important to me. I think about it more than anthing else(maybe to an unhealthy extent). I devote a lot of time shooting 4-5 local matches per month. During the summer, I practice at the range during the week at least twice per month. I do dry fire drills on small targets at home during the tournament season. I do eye exercises during this time too. I shoot at least two state matches, one area match, and nationals every year. I progressed from C to B in my first year after joining USPSA with a Glock 35, then purchased the STI, and made A within the next year. I paid for a class from Sevigny just two weeks ago. I read everything I have time to, and reload vigorously to keep up.

I appreciate your analytics on this, really. I am trying to change the shooter, but having difficulty. I have decided to not shoot close targets in practice. I have been trying to call every shot. Even when my hands are gripping harder, my mind is very relaxed. I am trying to change the equipment, but only one feature at a time until I can eliminate this issue. The disconnector travel changed when I put in the new trigger. I left some pre-travel and over-travel in it as well. I left a little more return in it, and left it at 2.5 lbs. instead of 2(that one kills me, I have Glocks with stock parts that have 2.75 lb. triggers). I will shoot on Sunday in a local match. I am not certain if match conditions will allow me to deliberately test my gun, so I may have to try for the malf next week. The next logical step seems like a standard grip.

[Flexmoney]

Smitty,

I figured as much.

I think that further supports my theory.

There is another thread aroung here where I drone on about vision vs. feel.

The short version of my ramblings...

I'll submit that vision is just as fast (if not faster...due to more knowing), and it has the added benefit of less tension.

Tension would seem to be a factor with this gun malfuction. (one of many?)

[MikeFoley]

Flex, I am having trouble understanding what you refer to as tension. Is it tension on the gun, tension in my muscles, tension in my brain? Maybe all 3? I can do this while being totally relaxed, cold within my first 6 rounds, as soon as I get to the range having not fired a shot in days. Or I can do it 9 stages into Tenn. State, 5 stages into Nats, for example. Guide me on how to overcome the subconscious accelleration when I am comfortably up close.

[Flexmoney]

fomeister,

Your devotion to the sport is as expected. With all the time, more and energy you put in...you don't need to be hampered by this issue.

It sounds to me like you are on track.

But, as Phil said...the gun has GOT to run. (which I expanded to include the shooter)

I was just breakin' it down for you "old school".

[Flexmoney]

Flex, I am having trouble understanding what you refer to as tension.  Is it tension on the gun, tension in my muscles, tension in my brain?  Maybe all 3?  I can do this while being totally relaxed, cold within my first 6 rounds, as soon as I get to the range having not fired a shot in days.  Or I can do it 9 stages into Tenn. State, 5 stages into Nats, for example.  Guide me on how to overcome the subconscious accelleration when  I am comfortably up close.

Dang...you post quick too...lol

Except the Lord VISION as your savior.

Denounce the evil being known as SPEED.

[MikeFoley]

Flex, I do really appreciate your analytics(and your GM status). The best thing about this forum is guys like you willing to evaluate and help others with their issues. Julie G. told me that she learns something from everyone in this sport, D shooters thru GMs. What I appreciate most is an unbiased look at the issues, and the dialogue that ensues.

Now seriously, about that tension thing...