"Targets may be neutralized with prop knife or gun" possible?

[TriggerHippie]

I'm relatively new to stage design and I was wondering if there would be game-stopper safety or rules issues with having a knife (real or rubber?) as a stage prop which could be used to neutralize targets. Surprisingly a Google search seems to turn up naught as far as precedent stages or similar questions.

I was envisioning a stage where competitors would be either compelled to carry the knife throughout the stage (necessitating the use of knife/pistol gripping techniques), or alternatively just to use the knife for the first few targets and then abandon or drop the knife afterwards.

For a "knife", I was thinking something that poked small, easy to tape holes, like this old Chinese spike bayonet I have lying around.

It sounds like loads of awesome fun to have the ability to use the knife to neutralize targets, although this opens up a can of worms as to scoring knife hits vice gun hits and puts the stage firmly into the "outlaw" category.

Has anyone ever thought of or even tried something similar to this? Thanks.

Edited November 23, 2012 by TriggerHippie

[Sarge]

Has anyone ever thought of or even tried something similar to this? Thanks.

Uh......... no.

[TriggerHippie]

Haha really? I can't imagine that my, uh... "stab and dash"?... scenario would be that unique with all the zombie fantasists out there. I recall seeing a grip technique with the hands joined together and the off-hand holding an edged-weapon, blade-down, which kind of inspired this.

Edited November 23, 2012 by TriggerHippie

[Steve RA]

We used to throw together some rather weird stages, just for fun, but, you'd have to do it as just a local club match, wouldn't fly for a "real" match.

[jtielke]

Done it at IDPA matches and 3-Gun matches. Also did a 3-gun match that involved bayoneting a target. Never seen it done in a USPSA match though.

[DWFAN]

I like shooting matches where we shoot, not stab.

[Joe4d]

USPSA is a shooting match. IDPA is international defensiive "PISTOL" association.

[BSeevers]

In the old "wild" days I set up a stage that started with you having to stab a target with getting one procedural if knife didnt remain in target. It was fun but probably not good since its a little too much bubble gum to be consistant and fair. Hey it was cool n fun though

[TriggerHippie]

Jtielke, So what were the primary safety concerns if any when you used the knife in the IDPA setting? Did they stage one particular knife then have you abandon it?

From just thinking about it, sweeping the knife hand seems like the first obvious concern. Accidental self-inflicted cuts another. It also occurs to me that... enthusiastic... stabbers might have their hands slip down a knife without a guard (like the folding knives a lot of people carry). So better to have a straightforward, preferably dull-edged blade.

Other than the fact that it's a steel or rubber knife, then it's pretty much the same as any IDPA stage requiring the competitor to carry something, it would seem.

So far the safest way I can think of to do this would be to have an unloaded firearm table start. At beep engage bad-breath-distance targets (old tore-up targets that are mostly tape perhaps) with stage knife. Abandon stage knife (style points for leaving it stuck in the last target!), pick up and load handgun, proceed with course of fire.

Screaming optional.

Edited November 23, 2012 by TriggerHippie

[BSeevers]

Oh I would Never use a real sharp metal knife.

It was a hard plastic knife I think for training or sneaking on airplanes and in concerts?

[TriggerHippie]

Now you've got me thinking Spork Attack Stage.

[Flexmoney]

Stage 1, Area 2, 2007

Not to neutralize a target, but as a stage procedure...using a plastic tanto knife. It was just a quick distraction at the start position, then on with the shooting.

As seen here:

[toothguy]

I like shooting matches where we shoot, not stab.

Re-holstering might be an issue.

Edited November 24, 2012 by toothguy

[jtielke]

From just thinking about it, sweeping the knife hand seems like the first obvious concern. Accidental self-inflicted cuts another. It also occurs to me that... enthusiastic... stabbers might have their hands slip down a knife without a guard (like the folding knives a lot of people carry). So better to have a straightforward, preferably dull-edged blade.

At one of the IDPA matches we had to stab it into a piece of wood to abandon it. I wasn't too keen on that as obviously your hand could slide down the blade. There was a guard on the knife to prevent that but I still didn't feel it was the best idea. Also they gave a procedural if the knife didn't stick into the board. After a few squads the board was pretty beat up in the middle and difficult to make the knife stick. I didn't care for that stage at all.

At the Pirates of the Texas Carbine Championship this year they had us stab a hard plastic knife into a piece of foam to start the stage. It was still pretty pokey but a lot safer than the real knife into wood. Found that stage on the below video, fast forward to 6:10 to see.

LaRue match last year had the bayonet stage at 2:30 on this video.

[bikerburgess]

I think you could do something similar to what you are thinking within the rules by using some other kind of non USPSA target that would be engaged with the "knife" you would just need to wright the stage description to say that these "targets" (could be anything) have to be engaged per your description ( I would go with something simple like touched with the knife that way the RO is not making a judgement call on weather the engagement was good enough) after the start signal but before the final shot fired or receive a procedural penalty per "target" not properly engaged.

Mike

[lef-t]

I'd like to see a pirate stage where the shooter has to hold the knife in his teeth throughout the CoF.

Perhaps forcing strong hand only by turning the weak hand into a hook? Should make for interesting reloads

[MarkCO]

_{Superstition 3Gun we had to stab a target this year. I am pretty sure I have had a knife stab target 3 or 4 other times over the years in USPSA and IDPA matches. But in all of those cases, it was one target and written into the stage procedures with the only option being to stab the target. Never a metal blade, just plastic.}

_{I did a lot of knife/gun drills in force on force training several years ago. I will always remember the two things the knife trainer always said...}

_{1. Always bring a gun to a knife fight.}

_{2. If stupid brings a knife to a knife fight, stupid gonna get cut up.}

_{So, if we are keeping it somewhat practical, maybe the knife after out of ammo, or in order to get to a staged gun.}

[SteelShooten]

Collect targets from previous matches that are too shot up to be useful for actual scoring.

Have the shooter signify that they are ready by attacking the start target (ROs need to stand well clear at the prep due to the occasional closet ninja). A furring strip 'sword' is still a weapon. (have spares available)

Once the RO sees that the start target has been cut/torn into two distinct pieces, he/she initiates the timer.

Shooter goes to retrieve staged gun......to eliminate the rest of the zombies.

Fun match. Some people found the start target surprisingly difficult to 'kill'.

It kept the monkey motion off the clock.

Notes:

Stabbing solid obects with pointy objects is not recommended since people find innovative ways to hurt themselves.

Abandoning anything pointy requires a foolproof set-up.

[TriggerHippie]

OK, first... what the hell is going on here... people are not supposed to be helpful on the Internet! Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions and in particular the videos.

From a review of previous stages and the concerns people have brought up, it seems the safest combination of, uh... stabber? and stabbee?... is a plastic utensil and foam. It just so happens I have a ton of Kaizen foam around (from making a guitar case rifle case which is another story).

I really like the idea of running out of ammo and stabbing. (OMG, or beating up targets with an empty gun! How savage!) Unfortunately this also seems like a really good opportunity for people to shoot themselves while re-holstering in an adrenaline-soaked haze of stabbing and shooting.

The safest way to mix things up by having the, er... thrill of stabbing something... with shooting, is to have the stabbing before you have the shooting. (I dare you to say that out loud with a straight face.)

The safest implement I can think of to stab with is the spork. In contrast to a gun, I think it would take some serious contrivance to seriously injure yourself with a spork. Also I think it adds some whimsy to what would otherwise be a slightly, er... aggressive... stage.

Stage design and a sense of theatre seem necessary to prevent the pre-shooting stabbing (which sounds like a morbid cop joke) from ending up seeming perfunctory.

Here we go for the stage - I'll cadge up a drawing in a bit.

Tentative name: The Reason We Don't Eat Out Anymore, Or, When Sporks Attack!!!

Comstock scoring

Audible start

Shooter begins at far left of stage, seated at table. Unloaded firearm and magazines/speedloaders in "box" on separate table adjacent to shooter pointed downrange and staged per USPSA rules.

At start signal, shooter engages upper A- and B-zone of two targets seated adjacent and opposite him at table using staged spork on table. Multiple sporks will be staged on the table in case a spork breaks. Shooter must stick one spork into each upper A-zone. Two targets may be engaged simultaneously with two sporks should the shooter so desire. Shooter may stand, lean over table and move around table prior to neutralizing the first two spork-only targets.

After all spork targets are engaged and sporked, shooter retrieves weapon from table and loads. Moving left to right, shooter engages two target array "rooms" with a mix of paper targets and poppers.

Scoring begins when first shot is fired, stops on last shot.

Notes:

Shooter may not use own knives. Stage sporks only must be used.

The fastest to first shot will be awarded a stage prize (a box of sporks perhaps).

Edited November 29, 2012 by TriggerHippie

[TriggerHippie]

First draft. Steel should be at minimum safe steel distance, target orientation not exact. Any obvious issues?

Edited November 29, 2012 by TriggerHippie

[Pro-Pain]

What about something like this for the major power factor guys: http://www.rei.com/product/660002/snow-peak-titanium-spork?preferredSku=6600020017&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-pla-_-product-_-6600020017&mr:referralID=95d4c6fd-57e2-11e2-b779-001b2166c62d

[Pro-Pain]

It is a neat concept. Always good to have creative starts/courses. And you can also see if they should or shouldn't be carrying a firearm by the way they stab inadament/foam people in a just for fun situation..