slug popper DQs

[1chota]

i have noticed a variety of penalties imposed when a competitor shoots a steel target with a slug. These vary from the draconian "Match DQ" to "Stage DQ" to "time and money penalties imposed".

first, i think stages should have their target arrays set up in order that would prevent this occurence. having said that, i realize that doesn't always happen.

secondly, i have never been DQ'd for this particular sin.

It seems to me to be a pretty harsh penalty for competitors who have invested a lot to particpate in a match. I would encourage MDs to seriously consider the "time and money" penalties as a more appropriate judgement. Ft. Benning imposed a 30 second penalty and $50 fine.

What say you?

[Dan Sierpina]

Wynn,

I've seen the penalty plus cash, I don't recall if RM3G did a stage DQ or not. A match DQ is a bit steep, but, if using USPSA rules it may be called for. It looks that ammo management is part of the course, much like being a memory stage.

This is one "issue" with outlaw matches, and a possible standardization of rules may help.

Ultimately it is up to the shooter to find out the rules, and follow them. It's also up the the match director to make sure such rules are availble to be reviewed prior to the match.

[Benelli Chick]

WE (at Rocky Mountan) started the time plus money penalty!

I don't think we've ever DQ'd you for it...even stage!

Oh yeah! Stage 1 this year, which was an all birdshot stage, no slugs allowed. You would've gotten DQ'd for that...but you couldn't have done it by mistake after all the hoohaw about nothing but birdshot!!!! It was only 10 yards away and it would've been both dangerous AND poor sportsmanship!

The time plus money works. Just money, and people won't take it seriously! Just time, and it doesn't help on the repair bills for the broken targets!

We think that if it's an unsafe situation to shoot steel with a slug, it shouldn't be easy to make a mistake, and we don't set them up that way! We don't think hitting a pistol plate that falls, with a slug is really anymore of a safety concern than hitting on the edge with pistol.

We like it the combo of both!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Denise

[AFH]

The problem lies in what you hit with a slug. Despite what some folks think, there is no more danger in hitting the small plates we use with a slug than hitting them with birdshot and pistol. However, hitting a popper as mentioned in your heading (depending on distance and angle of course), can result in slug fragments coming back up range. So, as long as you are talking about the small plates, I agree with you. Denise is absolutely right.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Andy

[outerlimits]

We had some idiot shoot one of those little r&r 5" plates with a slug. Other than having to look 100 feet away to find the damn thing, no real affects to the steel or anyone else. But it was really obvious.

[Stlhead]

I think if you hit an inappropriate target with a slug you should get a hefty time penalty ( up to doubling your time on the stage) as well as the FULL retail new value of the target including freight. I also think that after the match you should get the option of taking that piece of steel home as a trophy.

[MarkCO]

As a person who has studied and tested the richochet potential of various projectiles on various materials, including slugs, Andy is 100% correct.

The issues of nitpicking the various levels of DQs for safeties, slug hits, etc., in most cases, comes from people not wanting penalties for doing stupid things and thus jeopardizing the entire sport. Some MDs are to blame for this as well. By calling it "Draconian", I would suggest that you are making a judgement in an effort to sway opinion. However, realize that when the stupidity does catch up, you will be lucky to have a forensic expert such as myself assisting your attorney with scientific data. However, the facts may be against you and there will surely be a forensic expert on the other side who will make assertions regarding the ignorance, lack of knowledge or stupidity of the MD/RM or ruleset writer's actions.

If you think plaintiff attorney's don't read this site, you are extremely delusional. The ruleset that is the "most restrictive", or written by a committee, etc. will likely be colored as a standard of care.

With that said, the course designers have a responsibility to make every effort to minimuze the potenetial for unsafe actions.

[1chota]

As a person who has studied and tested the richochet potential of various projectiles on various materials, including slugs, Andy is 100% correct.

The issues of nitpicking the various levels of DQs for safeties, slug hits, etc., in most cases, comes from people not wanting penalties for doing stupid things and thus jeopardizing the entire sport. Some MDs are to blame for this as well. By calling it "Draconian", I would suggest that you are making a judgement in an effort to sway opinion. However, realize that when the stupidity does catch up, you will be lucky to have a forensic expert such as myself assisting your attorney with scientific data. However, the facts may be against you and there will surely be a forensic expert on the other side who will make assertions regarding the ignorance, lack of knowledge or stupidity of the MD/RM or ruleset writer's actions.

If you think plaintiff attorney's don't read this site, you are extremely delusional. The ruleset that is the "most restrictive", or written by a committee, etc. will likely be colored as a standard of care.

With that said, the course designers have a responsibility to make every effort to minimuze the potenetial for unsafe actions.

cheese and crackers! i wasn't talking about ricky shays. i was asking for opinions for the shooting of a popper with a slug. (read my post once more, thank you.) besides, i think most of the penalties are imposed or at least the claimed reason for imposing these penalties is due to the damage to the steel. i could be wrong, but that is the take i get. Edited November 19, 2012 by 1chota

[JMIS]

In the first round of the Colt 3man I watched a guy shoot a texas star with a slug. Shotgun part of the stage was two slugs targets and the texas star. He must of loaded and extra slug and forgot, he was DQ'ed.

[Chuck Anderson]

First popper I saw hit with a slug was extremely dangerous. Combo slug and shot stage. Paper At 50 and poppers at 10. First popper no prob, then two paper at 50. Looked normal on the first slug target. Second one was obviously shot. Before anyone could yell stop the shooter whacked a popper. Most of the slug came directly back and hit the RO. Cut through his pant leg and took a chunk of sin with it. About an inch below the boys. Little further up and we'd be calling him one nut. Little further over and he could have clipped the femoral artery. No thanks. If you're not paying close enough attention and do something that dumb you can go home.

Guess I don't have a lot of sympathy for safety violations.

[GorillaTactical]

First popper I saw hit with a slug was extremely dangerous. Combo slug and shot stage. Paper At 50 and poppers at 10. First popper no prob, then two paper at 50. Looked normal on the first slug target. Second one was obviously shot. Before anyone could yell stop the shooter whacked a popper. Most of the slug came directly back and hit the RO. Cut through his pant leg and took a chunk of sin with it. About an inch below the boys. Little further up and we'd be calling him one nut. Little further over and he could have clipped the femoral artery. No thanks. If you're not paying close enough attention and do something that dumb you can go home.

Guess I don't have a lot of sympathy for safety violations.

I think that's just it...Is the question about damaging the steel or about damaging someone else at the match?

If we assume that putting a slug on steel is the same as any of the other safety violations which can get you DQed, in that they have the potential for injuring someone, then the penalty must be the same.

But if we assume that it's just about clubs and MD's not wanting their steel damaged....time + monetary penalty seems fair.

Again, when you hear a story like Chucks or hear Andy or Mark chime in regarding it being a safety concern, that's when we have to make the assessment that it is indeed a safety concern and treat the crime with a correct punishment...It's very rare that an AD will actually harm someone, even if the gun isn't pointed into a berm, but there are the unlikely cases when it can indeed harm someone, and the same is the case with the slug on close steel.

[1chota]

_{the solution would seem to be to make sure as the stages are designed that there is no mixing of the targets. Either have the slugs at the first of the stage or the end of the stage. The mix and match set up would seem to invite a mistake. reckon?}

[MarkCO]

YES Wynn, that was what the last line in my post said.

I know what you asked, and that is what I addressed.

[1chota]

YES Wynn, that was what the last line in my post said.

I know what you asked, and that is what I addressed.

of course we could just do away with slugs. (i hate the dang things.)

[El Guapo]

I can completely get behind doing away with slugs. Slugs suck!

[MarkCO]

Stupid slugs shots, yes I agree with you Wynn! The ability to use the shotgun platforms versatiliy should be tested in 3Gun, IMHO, but not stupid stuff. If you want to do select load, do it so a screw up on slugs will hit a clay, so there are no DQs. DON'T follow slug shots with aerials, GIVE an easy transition from one type to the other. Let you shoot all the birdshot, then slugs, or vise versa.

[StealthyBlagga]

...Is the question about damaging the steel or about damaging someone else at the match?

Years back, before our rules set a minimum distance for slug-on-steel hits, I engaged a falling steel slug plate at about 20 yards (that was how the stage was designed - not a DQ at that time). The slug bounced back and hit Angus Hobdell in the forearm (some might give me a medal, not a DQ ). He had to go to hospital to get the slug fragment dug out of his arm. So this is a bona fide safety issue, and not just about damaging steel. Like any other safety issue, transgression should incur a match DQ.

...If you think plaintiff attorney's don't read this site, you are extremely delusional. The ruleset that is the "most restrictive", or written by a committee, etc. will likely be colored as a standard of care.

When we re-wrote IMA-SMM3G rules a few years back, we decided to standardize the minimum safe steel target engagement distances for each ammo type. For guidance we went to IPSC rules. Being the global governing body for this kind of shooting, and having made their decision based on actual experience and data, we felt this approach would be safest and least likely to expose us to liability. Since implementing these rules, I'm not aware of any incident of slugs or rifle bullets bouncing back and injuring anyone at our matches. As a stage designer, I do not feel these rules in any way inhibit me from creating an enjoyable shooting experience either.

With that said, the course designers have a responsibility to make every effort to minimize the potential for unsafe actions.

Agreed. Whenever possible we put slugs at the beginning or end of a shotgun sequence. If shot and slug targets are in close proximity, we will use frangibles/static clays for the shot and paper for the slugs. We try to make the stages as foolproof as possible (although, as the saying goes, nothing can be made foolproof as fools are so ingenious ).

Edited November 19, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[Lange22250]

The companion problem to slug on steel is the slug after a flying clay. Yes, some shooters are so disconnected from what the gun is doing after the buzzer goes off the plan will go to hell and no mater what the recoil feels like they keep pulling the trigger. For an RO to process that they are absolutely sure the steel was hit with a slug and stop the shooter before a clay is engaged is a tough thing.

I wish this was a hypothetical, but I had the misfortune of watching it this year.

[steviesterno]

I think it's up to the shooter to be 100% responsible for what's coming out of their gun and in what direction. I got to see that guy plug a texas star with a slug, and luckily it took the plate off. Dented it a bit, and broke the whole mechanism behind it, slowing down the match and causing us to fix it on the fly. Having a serious penalty (Pay for it, then leave) makes you really think about what you're doing.

Although, we also did have an individual decide to use AP rounds for a local rifle match, and ruined about $1000 in targets just by being a jack-hole. Not everyone wants to play by the rules so there should be penalties doled out appropriately.

[1chota]

Perhaps if the stage designers put the slug targets at the very end of the stage and prohibited loading slugs at the start, it would prevent the safety/engagement problem???????

[Outsydlooknin75]

Perhaps if the stage designers put the slug targets at the very end of the stage and prohibited loading slugs at the start, it would prevent the safety/engagement problem???????

To me that kinda sounds like dumbing it down.I don't want to see match directors dumb it down. Hell I'd like to be able to shoot a popper with buckshot if it's got flipped clays on it to throw the clays further in the air to give more time on them.....but that's not happening

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[JMIS]

Perhaps if the stage designers put the slug targets at the very end of the stage and prohibited loading slugs at the start, it would prevent the safety/engagement problem???????

I would say the bottom line is.... IF YOU CAN'T COUNT, DON'T LOAD SLUGS WITH BIRDSHOT!!!!!! If the stage has slugs in between shot then only load your gun per targets. It will be slower but that's part of the game.

[1chota]

Perhaps if the stage designers put the slug targets at the very end of the stage and prohibited loading slugs at the start, it would prevent the safety/engagement problem???????

I would say the bottom line is.... IF YOU CAN'T COUNT, DON'T LOAD SLUGS WITH BIRDSHOT!!!!!! If the stage has slugs in between shot then only load your gun per targets. It will be slower but that's part of the game.

i am trying to think SAFETY, so, do all you can to keep it safe. Not all our competitors are as good as you.

[JMIS]

Perhaps if the stage designers put the slug targets at the very end of the stage and prohibited loading slugs at the start, it would prevent the safety/engagement problem???????

I would say the bottom line is.... IF YOU CAN'T COUNT, DON'T LOAD SLUGS WITH BIRDSHOT!!!!!! If the stage has slugs in between shot then only load your gun per targets. It will be slower but that's part of the game.

i am trying to think SAFETY, so, do all you can to keep it safe. Not all our competitors are as good as you.

It has nothing to do with how good someone is. This was my first full year of shooting 3gun, last year I never mixed slugs with shot because I didn't feel confident doing it in a safe way. I know it cost me time but it never cost me $$$$$ or a DQ and better yet injury. It sounds like your unsure of yourself, and you'd like the stages designed to fit your game. If a stage starts out with 3 shot then 2 slugs then 3 shot, only load your gun with 3 shot and run it dry, then put 2 slugs in and run it dry, then finish up by loading 3 shot and finish out the stage. I'm not a pro and never will be, I run as fast as I can while staying safe.

[1chota]

actually, my original post was based on the input i had from different MDs that the penalties imposed were based on damage to the steel. other posters pointed out that safety was the paramount issue. following that premise, i made a suggestion that would be closest to ensuring that no one messed up. in my original post i did point out that i have never been DQd for this offense. as far as surety of my abilities, i can safely state that i am old, slow and miss alot. peace, bro!