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Rem 700 Safety >Off AD's


NMinzghor

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I am a former police sniper (6yrs) and instructor for the WA state LE Sniper course. When I started sniping (96) the weapon of choice was the PSS with a 26" barrel. As time went on several major depts shifted to the LTR which is a 20" fluted. We noticed very little if any depreciation in accuracy and only minor in velocity. The average LE engagement is only 72yds and only that far cause one guy took a long shot.

That being said almost every major dept in our state has gone away from the Remingtons because 3 depts. had A.D.s when taking the weapon off safe. This is a long standing issue with Remingtons but in the liability based world of police work we no longer could take that risk and most of the local p.d.s have now switched to the Accuracy Intl. which is a far superior and far more expensive rifle. It is very heavy also....in the 15lb range.

Nick

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... almost every major dept in our state has gone away from the Remingtons because 3 depts. had A.D.s when taking the weapon off safe. This is a long standing issue with Remingtons..

I hate to drift my own thread, but could you explain what the conditions are when that occurs? I've yet to have that happen and would prefer it never does. It would seem like one could just drop in a new trigger group and eliminate the problem altogether.

Where did all the old PSS rifles go? Kept in inventory? Or sold off?

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The only compelling reason to have a longer barrel on a Police/Sheriff/State Patrol rifle I could think of is if one was assigned to protect an asset out in E. WA / S. Idaho as part of a Homeland Security issue. Does that ever even actually happen?

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Eric,

There was a report on a few older remingtons. IIRC they were from the late 70's early 80's. They would supposedly go off if the safety was put on the trigger pulled then when the safety was pushed off they would sometimes fire. There was a big lawsuit where a young kid was hunting with his mother and he ended up shooting her. I've never seen it actually reproduced and we had a bunch of M40's in the Corps and our SERT team has customized 700's. It might happen but more likely somebody had there finger where it didn't belong when they took the safety off.

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Thanks Chris. I tried to duplicate the failure last night and couldn't. I have about a 2.5 lb trigger job, so I figure my gun would fail before any 6 lb factory trigger.

Thanks to all! The info helped the supplier make a good decision. They're going to have a excellent precision rifle solution for smaller, less cash-flush agencies in the NW.

This is the greatest place on earth.

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Tacoma P.D. had an a.d. on an actual mission taking the gun off safe. Seattle had one in training and King Co.(my dept) had two in training on the same rifle(a brand new LTR) back to back. Remington claims it only happens on guns with lightened triggers(which is nearly every p.d. rifle most are at 3lb). All of those a.d.s were within a year of each other and Remington refused to concede there is a problem. It probably would have been cheaper to just go with a 3 position safety like on the Winchester, but the depts. saw liability and chose to pony up the bucks for the Accuracy Internationals. Most of the guys are shooting .3 groups with them. Not fun to creep with though.

As far as the longer barrel goes, our LTRs were shooting as well as the longer barrels out to 600 yds.

If you email me I'll send you a data card for Rem PSS with Federal Match ammo out to 800 in all weather conditions.

Nick

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Nick,

I'd still bet on a finger where it shouldn't be. I have 5 700's and they are all 2.25 pounds with the factory trigger adjusted. Never had a problem. 3rd barrel on the one PSS so it has seen some rounds. The AI's are heavy but man are they sweet for an out of the box gun.

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The finger on the trigger seems ... the most likely scenario.

Is there any actual documented evidence of the safety failing and a discharge occurring? I would expect zero people to admit they had their finger on the trigger, even if they were aware enough to realize they did it.

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I had it happen on a 700 once. Pulled trigger, realized safety was on, released safety. Notice I did not say I released the trigger. :wacko: Scared the crap out of me although it did improve the long-term outlook for a certain rock chuck at the time.

My hunting partner, having witnessed the whole thing went into this long discourse about how the trigger on a 700 was a trigger, not a set trigger and the safety was not a trigger...blah blah blah.

He then proceeded to put a hole in his hood shooting at close range with a scope. Second time I had seen that particular maneuver. But that is a whole other story.

We then determined that neither of us should be around firearms that particular day and retired to a pool parlor for beer and shooting pool.

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All I can speak for sure about is our dept experience(the two in training)when the first one happened. They loaded up the same rifle and the whole team watched as the sniper took the safety off and it went off. There was also a 20/20 special on these problems with Remingtons either last year or the year before. The 3 position safety is a far safer bet.

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I won't for a minute deny that people's 700's have AD'd. However...

I have a really tough time believing that the AD issue isn't related to improper trigger adjustment. For those who are concerned with the issue, could dropping in a Timney trigger or similar provide a suitable solution and a decent trigger pull? Dumping the 700 kind of seems like people are tossing out the baby with the bathwater. An out of the box PSS is pretty tough to beat performance-wise. You can spend more, but I don't think anyone's getting more other than a detachable-box magazine.

I have absolute, 100% confidence in my 700 in both it's performance and safety. Of course I went to a top rifle 'smith (Loren Peter, IIRC) to have the trigger work done. $75 well invested.

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I have personally heard one story of an A.D. from a member of our gun club. Yes, he claims that a friend had an honest A.D. with a M700 ( no finger involved). I really would like to see a striker fall first hand though.

Remington did have an issue with this not too long ago and it involved a lot of their M700s back when you had to switch the safety off to open the bolt. I bought one n

ew in 1984 and you can open the bolt in either position.

On my M700 ADL, I did tests like slamming the bolt closed with the safety off and banging the rifle in different directions and found that it will fire if you take the pull weight down to 2.5lbs. . Three pounds even was safe, so I set it at 3.5lbs. and it hasn't moved in 15 years.

If there was no finger involved in these A.D.s I wish Remington would at least set the record straight and warn us .

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the guy that does our work does all the work for the coppers on the west side. He was the riflesmith for the Marine Sniper School in Vietnam. I think the best bet is to get a trigger replacement or a 3 position safety. Or better yet like myself.....buy only Winchesters.

I didn't like the performance of the 700's in inclimate weather either. Lots of shaved brass around the extractor/ejector causing major problems. Saw this alot at sniper school in the winter time.

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The Smithing on 700's has come a hell of a long way since the 60's. GA Precision builds some of the best tactical rifles out there and they use 700's. The brass shaving problem isn't the gun or the temp. It was the FGMM ammo. The brass was soft and shaved in any gun. KAC actually started to recommend that it not be used in the SR-25. The 700 trigger can be adjusted without problems. The problem comes in when somebody starts messing with the sear engagement screw and takes it down to far. Most 700's will shoot circles around the 70's and the 700 has a lot more mods available.

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I have had this happen twice. On one 700 the trigger was "dicked with" heavily. This thing was a piece of work. Run the action and squeeze the trigger with the safety on and all was OK. The minute you took the safety off...bang!! I actually shot a pretty good group with the safety release, only a little flinch due to the safety impacting on my thumb. I learned to let my thumb ride over the top on recoil. Good thing it was a varminter and fairly heavy! :D The other one was a stock PSS on a cold day ( someone else also mentioned weather) Shot a 3 round group put the safety on and did some writing in the old range book. went to top off the magazine ( old type where you had to disengage the safety to run the bolt). Wasn't even touching the grip, flicked the safety off with the thumb of the shooting hand that was also holding 3 more cartridges. Used ONLY my thumb and boom! jumped on the bipod like a startled horse and I jumped and probable screemed like a little girl! Thankfully this was in an area with miles of nothing for a back stop! Can and does happen! :o

One thought on the short versus long barrel debate, most of the N.M. guys like to weight thier rifles up to around 13-14 lbs for offhand shooting. This is right in the range of a varmint/precision rifle weight. I am not opposed to short, I just don't feel compelled to have one. :D Of note the PSS WASN'T mine!

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Unknown at this time capitan! My very old 700 short action has never done this and my trigger has been very hevily "dicked with" ( I still feel that all the after market triggers for the 700 are just a waste of money, if you have the time to really dick with them) The problem I see is that unless you really try to lock down the adjustment screws, it will change and always for the worst! The minute you break the factory glue seal on the adjustment screws expect the worst!!! and green lock-tite is your best friend!! I have been known to stake the bejesus out of the L.E. triggers I have done+++ green loc-tite

By the way...the only reason I run a 28.5" barrel is because I had to cut some off the blank in order to have a "clean" barrel to work with...30" would be just right. Even at 28.5" the rifle only weighs 14lbs WITH optic....#7 tapper, quiet and accurate.! KURTM

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Any remington factory trigger will fire when the safety is released if improperly adjusted. 3# is getting in the area where this will happen. This is one of the problems with a trigger safety as opposed to a bolt safety. If the PD's had sprung for the shilen trigger the AD's could have been avoided.

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I had a pre-64 M70 that did this twice. Factory trigger that had never been adjusted. This was a long time ago, 1966, but I remember the first time very well to this day. A very large mule deer skated after I launched a round with the release of the safety. I got no second shot. After the adrenalin subsided I tried it again, same result. Went back for a new trigger. I never felt the same about that rifle and sold it before the next season. Wish now I hadn't...

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Rhino...take a look at the M70 Coyote. I bought one in .308 and had it glass bedded and it shoots 1/2 MOA with match ammo no problem and it was only $525. It is what they are calling a medium heavy barrel. Stainless Barrel, blued action, and a laminate stock.

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