How low can you go?

[cylindrically challenged]

What are the lightest loads that anyone has been successful with? I.E. What's the lowest power factor that you can get your open class auto to run on? XD, Glock, 2011?? After scanning the Steel Challenge rules I see nowhere where they list a power factor floor. The inertia timers are set to actuate at a 120 power factor. But the inertia timers are backed up by audible timers with a chart to add time of flite into the final time. This chart is based on a average flight speed of 800fps. So the way I understand this actuating the inertia timers is not necessary. The rules state "any appropriate load for a given caliber"--9mm minimum. Could an 85gr bullet at 850fps be a legit load (72 power factor). You wouldn't even need a comp at these levels. Why not bring the recoil levels down as close to a 22lr as possible? Are any open class autos capable of operating reliably at a 72 power factor? XD, Glock, 2011?? These are starting to sound like cowboy action loads.

[gng4life]

I doubt if you run loads that low but it's possible. As long as your bullets are traveling at least 750 fps or above (by rule), you are okay. Also, .22 are straight blowback systems and with the delayed blowback system, it needs more energy along with the heavy components to operate. It would interesting to see if any could get something going like that. My SC loads are pretty anemic...about 100-105 PF and with the weight of the gun (shorty 2011), they really almost feel like .22 (more like a .32 or .380). I really doubt I can get them down another 30 PF...

[cylindrically challenged]

A revolver can.

[polizei1]

I've thought about this...

While I only compete at the local steel matches, it's still something that I've been pondering. Right now shooting USPSA, my load is 124gr 9mm at 135pf, WELL above what would be the minimum for steel. My loads are ~1,050 fps so I would have plenty of room to play with, all I would have to do is make sure the gun functions (obviously).

I'm sure there's people out there that do it, but the way I see it is, if you shoot another aspect of the sport like me, there would be a presumed decline in performance if I started messing with different loads. If I go from shooting a steel match with a PF of lets say 90-100, then next weekend go shoot a USPSA shooting 135, I think it would overall hinder my performance. I think too many people get caught up in the PF/load data debate. I still have yet to understand why people want to get 125 PF for their USPSA loads. To me to doesn't make any sense!

Getting back to steel, if it's the only discipline you shoot, I would seriously consider it. The way I look at it is you might as well give yourself the most advantage you can. It's not like the other competitors can't do the same. Besides the gun not functioning, I can only see one other potential issue: the slide movement will be slow and you'll be waiting to shoot.

Edited October 5, 2012 by polizei1

[kmca]

Had a friend that built an open gun that would sort of run on 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Don't know what power factor but his bullets bounced off the plastic barreks

[MarkCO]

I've often wondered why no-one made a .380 ACP on a full size 1911 frame with a lightened slide. Seems a savy pistolsmith could make a small fortune on the Steel Challenge shooters, at least for a short period of time. A 90 grain at 800 fps would be 72 PF. Only about 30 pf more than the .22RF, but about 50 pf less than a light 9mm load. The speed difference between the .22rf pistols and the CF pistols is enough to make it worth the effort. Pick any one of 10 shooters, give them a gun, they win SC and then viola, instant backlog for that smith.

[blind bat]

MarkCo: I think it's 38 Super but damn it's cool:

[cylindrically challenged]

GNG4life,

Where did you get 750fps as a rule for the low velocity limit?

[gng4life]

GNG4life,

Where did you get 750fps as a rule for the low velocity limit?

After you asked this, I went to the new "provisional" rules and did not find it. The old rule was this:

"AMMUNITION

There will be no multiple-projectile or magnum loads allowed. All rounds must travel a

minimum of 750 FPS. Competitors whose ammunition does not make minimum velocity

will be disqualified from the match(es) where the sub-standard ammunition was used. In

the rimfire event, .22 Long Rifle ammunition must be used (no powderless cases

allowed). "

It must have been removed and I never noticed it. The rule was there since there were tests that showed that bullets did not disintegrate as well below around 750 fps. The faster speeds meant that it would disintegrate a little better therefore being more safe. I am curious as to why it was removed so I will contact SCSA and ask about it. Thanks for asking...

[DougCarden]

Be careful with Revos....Remember if you have a light load in the case on your draw the powder will be forward in the case and your first shot could be a poofer. Most of the times at the Steel Challenge the first shot with Revo guys are very light...Most of them I know went to Bullseye powder for this very issue. Just something to think about...

Most SC loads are around 100PF. You can go lower with a lightened slide 1911 with a bushing comp, but reliability can be compromised when the gun gets dirty. I load a 110PF load that runs in a variety of guns all day long with a 115gr bullet, JHP or FMJ.

95gr jhp bullets are nice, but you need to get the PF up to around 125 before they shoot well (don't even bother with 95 FMJ, the accuracy sucks...) With a comp the extra juice isn't even felt, but the short OAL of the cartridge in 9mm with the 95s don't always feed well in single stack guns with no ramped barrel. That is why the 115 works well in all makes of guns.

It boils down to energy. You need what you need to run your gun. If you can get your gun to run at the lower PF with less energy then you are good to go.

Hope this helps....

DougC

[latech15]

I agree with Doug. I is difficult enough for smiths to make a 9mm run reliably with their shorter lengths. A 380 or shorter round would be a feeding nightmare.

i have some 105gr Bayou Bullets that I bought a year ago to try a steel challenge load with, but have never gotten around to it.

[cylindrically challenged]

In my revolvers I use Trail Boss for the real light loads. This powder was specifically engineered for the extremely light loads used in Cowboy Action. It is a real high volume powder. I load my .38s to a short OAL (1.400") which reduces the internal case volume. With Trail Boss even real light loads maintain reasonable load density. You will not get poof loads. My next experiment will be to load 100 gr. Berry's hollow base .380 bullets (.356" dia.) to around 775 fps and see what happens. I'll report back.

[itchy]

You may find that too light will screw with your timing. The first year I shot revolver at Steel Challenge, I didn't have much time to work up loads. I found that they were too light and it funny things were happening on the longer shots. I ended up switching ammo at the lunch break that was closer to my ICORE load. I've shot both my steel loads and ICORE loads in practice and there isn't much of a difference.

Seiichi

[cylindrically challenged]

I probably fire 5 rounds of 22 ammo to every round of 38. I use the 617 revo for the majority of my practice. No reloading and cost advantages make cross training with the 617 attractive. The closer I get my 38 to the performance of the 617 the easier it will be to make the transition to centerfire.

[cylindrically challenged]

1st round of testing is completed. This testing was completed with the 100gr. Berrys RNFB. The 6" STI and the 17L Glock would function at 3.5 grs. Bullseye but neither could lock the slide back on the last round. At 3.7 grs. Bullseye both guns locked the slide back on the last round. Velocity was 1080 in the 17L and 1040 fps in the STI. Or a 108 & 104 power factor. In the 627 revo, the bullet was too small in diameter (.3555") and the loaded bullets could be pushed by finger pressure back into the case. Accuracy was tested at 25 yds. Both the STI and the Glock averaged around 2.5" for 5 shot groups at 25yds. The 627 laid down one 5" group and one 8" group. Obviously the .3555" diameter bullet was too small for the revo. I fired some of my control ammo at 25 yds. out of the 627. This was the Berrys 158 gr./ .357 dia. Round Nose plated bullet. It fired a 1.34" group at 25 yds.

Bottom line,the lowest power factor that I could get the autos to reliaby run with the 100 gr. bullet was 104 & 108. My next attempt will be with 125 gr. bullets. The recoil impulse will be a little different coming off the 125 bullet because it's dwell time exiting the barrel will be longer. Hopefully this will allow the slide to operate at even lower power factors. Well see.

[cylindrically challenged]

I've gone through a couple more attempts at light load development. The last was for my S&W model 627. I was loading 125 gr. Xtreme plated bullets with 3.6 grs. of Trail Boss. What made this load work was shortening the over all length to that of the case. Or in other words - 1.151" inches. I loaded the 125 gr. bullets just like you'd load a flush seated 148 gr wadcutter. It brought the pressures up to where the Trail Boss burned consistently. Extreme spreads were held to 60 fps in a 5 shot string. And velocity from the 5" barrel averaged 724 fps. Power factor 88. Shot my first steel challenge match with the load this weekend. Our club made up all original stages so I can't compare my times to the standards. But I did shoot the match for the first time in my life without a single make up shot. All 5 shot for 5 hit strings. There was one or two strings that took 6 shots but I was always able to throw away that string. (Best 4 out of 5 strings for score) Tracking the dot in the C-More was just that much easier. I never lost the dot through the entire shot cycle and just timed the DA stroke as the dot swung into the target.

I'm trying to get my son to let me borrow his SJC Open Glock to see how low I can get it to run but this just hasn't happened yet.

On a side note there was a gentleman at the match with a 627 shooting almost my identical load except he was shooting a 125 cast bullet and 4.0 grs. of Trail Boss. His over all length was typical, he had the bullet crimped in the crimp groove. He internal case volume was at least double mine. His loads were extremely erratic. One shot would go boom the next would barely hit the plate with a little pop. He eventually squibbed a round but he caught it in time and I helped him knock the bullet out of the barrel with a squib rod. He won't make this mistake again. I'll let you know what happens when I get the Glock.