@$$****! Target Setters

[EricW]

I'm sick and tired of shooting Sporting Clays tournament courses that the owners were either too lazy or too arrogant to reset after the tournament. The presentations are so poor/difficult, you can't even *learn* anything from them. The challenge today was to actually *see* the bird. You had to try and pick out the faint hairs of the jet-black bottom edges of a true pair against a noisy background. They were practically invisible.

Nearly every presentation *started* 30 yards out and every thrower was set to Mach 3. Forget about seeing the target, you just tried to lead the shockwave.

Two guys on the squad just quit after station 2 today it was so bad. After station 8, I said to hell with it and went home.

If this is the way it's going to be, I don't want to shoot clays anymore. It's just impossible to learn the sport on a course that designed to force world-class shooters to shoot an 85 or lower on. It's like golfing on a course full of 500 yard par 3's. You might as well put up a "Beginners Totally Unwelcome" sign at the entrance.

The joy has been sucked out of the sport.

[Airedale]

EricW

Amen! That's one of the many reasons I decided to try IPSC. I've shot ~300 targets this year. By now, I would have shot ~3000 or so. Tired of it.

Dave

[JD45]

EricW,

Don't even get me started on this. I've been there, done it and still do it. You are expressing the fault that Clays ranges have had for years. I'm also sick of this.

The largest number of people that shoot clays don't even shoot registered targets.Master, AA, A, and B are a very small percentage of the numbers of people that pay to shoot.

I could go on forever but I'll say that the ranges need to set targets for everyday shooting to a level where Kruger could break 98 rain or shine (maybe 96 on a bad day). When they don't do this they just run people away, and these shooters are funding over 70% of their profits.

I read a good article about the fees for shooting too. The prices could and should be lowered. Just figure the costs to the range and compare to Trap and Skeet. It doesn't add up.

[ranger]

I shoot competitively in GA in Sporting Clays - I am currently A Class. The Sporting Clays ranges have a tough job satisfying shooters. There are a core group of shooters in each state that travel the state and region circuit shooting tournaments. This core group of competitive shooters (who shot a lot of targets) demand tough courses. They want a lot of variety and demand that courses constantly change their presentations.

However, at the local club level, many shooters want a course that they can shoot in the 80s or higher. These shooters like to shoot the same course over and over so that they can maintain or improve their scores.

I do not envy the course owners and managers.

[JD45]

I can understand the top class shots demands to a certain point. If all ranges in SC and GA start setting targets that keep everyday shooters coming back and then you travel to FL or TX and they are still throwing targets that would make George Digweed cuss, the plan looks bad. I am aware that we have gotten ourselves into a viscious cycle and it seems impossible to ever again set targets like we did in 1990, but how much longer can we keep turning shooters away. Ma and Pa do not raise hunters and shooters in America like they did in the past. We shooters are going to have to create and attract all that we can. If we run them all away so our Master class guys can keep breaking 89, when we get old and gray the sport might die.

[EricW]

Let me clarify. I'm not opposed to difficult presentations. I don't want to see Sporting Clays degenerate into American Skeet and Trap. Nobody wants that.

I'm opposed to 8 to 12 royal bitcheroos in a row. It's gone from one extreme to the other. I don't want 100 slow flying gimme targets, but things have just gone off the charts here. The targets have become so long, so fast, and so difficult that even the regulars have a hell of a time breaking birds. I'm not talking about shooting 8/10. I'm talking 0/10 and 2/10 hard. Even the trapper kids (both EXCELLENT shooters) who shoot the course every damned day were struggling to break 60.

There's no way you can take a beginning shooter to the range anymore. There's maybe two stations a new shooter could marginally succeed at here locally.

This shit will flat out kill the sport.

[Flexmoney]

shit piss f*#k c**t cock-sucker mother-f*#ker tits

(just wanted to catch up with Eric and his posts lately )

[tightloop]

Know what you mean...at the 95 World Shoot in San Antonio, I was squaded right behing John Kruger...when he was probably at his peak....watched him enter the box and go 1 for 10 on a true pair thrown from a pair of towers on top of a hill...landed at 67 and 72 yards from the box...quartering away and dropping...after the tourney, I asked Mike Hampton, MD, what the lead on that pair was....he said 23 feet and 8 feet under....well HELL

same tourney, tried a pair of teal up and curling left and right, from 61 yards...looked like a pair of BB's in the sky....DAMN....broke 4 of 10 for a whopping 67 on day one...great score for a B shooter....really embarassed....

[EricW]

shit piss f*#k c**t cock-sucker mother-f*#ker tits

(just wanted to catch up with Eric and his posts lately  )

Flex,

Nice to see you finally get ahead of the f-ing power curve.

=================================================

TL,

Know what you mean. I don't even see the point behind setting targets where random chance is as much of a factor as actual skill. At those ranges, targets are getting hit, but simply not breaking. Not to mention the sheer luck of getting the *exact* lead dialed in each time.

I figured it out. At $45-55/round, you're going to spend $500 to $1000 on targets a month to reach a decent skill level. For what it would cost me at a range to actually get good, I could just buy some low-end auto traps build my own stinking clays range. My range will actually be fun.

I think I'm through fuming now.

[Vlad]

I don't shoot clay bird games, in part because of what you describe. I have tried it twice and in both cases I found the setup really hard on a new guy like me. That, I don't need snide comments about shooting it wih a combat shotgun. Guess what .. I'm not buying a nice double for a game I haven't shot before.

Perhaps the solution is Practical Clays ...... where you add a timer. Without time issues target presentation gets harder and harder. With time being scored, then the top guys can get faster while the rest can still shoot.

Oe maybe I'm just crazy that way.

Vlad

[ranger]

I think the responses are skewed. What would the group say if they shot "easy" USPSA matches? What would the gripe be if all the targets were fully exposed, 5 yards away? What if every stage was "easy"?

I have only been shooting Sporting Clays about 5 years. Shooters who were at the top of the game 8 years ago will not recognize the demands of the current tournaments. If you want to be competitive, you have to shoot tough courses.

Typically, courses are set at a moderate toughness on "non-tournament" days.

A good solution is to have two shooting boxes at each station. One shooting box should be for "fun" shooters and one for "competitive" shooters and share the same traps.

[JD45]

Ranger, what I am getting at here was addressed in Sporting Clays Magazine last year. The article suggested that a course should have all of the basic shots covered. For instance, crossing and quartering targets at under 25 yards, an incoming target, an outgoing target, a rabbit, and maybe some teal. Then, throw in a crosser at 35-40yds. Occasionally a tough 50-55 yarder can be thrown in for tournaments.

The hard part is that the entire country has to do this for it to work (England started the tough target setting, I think).

What do we have to lose if Master class shooters win with a 97 or even 99? 100s will still be rare.

Trap is the largest shotgun sport in the nation by far and at big shoots things don't even really start until the shoot-off.

I just can't understand why it is so important to watch a top shooter miss 15 targets and at the same time see a new guy come out and shoot a 35.

When the NSCA decides to deal with these issues (and the high entry fees) I believe that the sport will grow tremendously.

[ranger]

NSCA is growing right now. Georgia, which is known for setting tough courses, has thrown more registered targets in 2004 than ever before. The NWTF shoot (starts tomorrow) at the Meadows (near Macon, GA) has been sold out. The GA State shoot in Savannah, GA a few weeks ago was huge, also.

Target fees are another matter altogether. I pick and choose my tournaments. I will shoot the NWTF which is just a few miles from my home but the fees are way too high for me. I shot a 100 target shoot last weekend in Augusta for $45 - that is more my style.

THere is no doubt that SC tournaments are getting high cost. You can easily spend $500 over a three day weekend if you shoot the Prelim, Sub-gauges, Main Event (200 targets), and FITASC.

Unfortunately, a lot of SC shooters play the money side of the sport and hope to win a pot of money at the big shoots - this drives up the entry fees. I would rather see lower fees with "options" for those that want to win money.

[Irishlad]

To keep everyone happy, the clubs really need to have different courses, two anyway, for their members. Of course, good target setters are needed in any course. There are some really "stupid" shots out there.

One course for the competitor and one for the more casual shooter, small gauge, hunter, etc, etc.

Keep in mind that "The Sporting Clays Magazine" is a publication of the NSCA which is sporting clays arm of the NSSA...American style skeet. Which is the easiest or most boring(IMHO) of all the clay target sports, similiar to 16 yard trap. Both games are a measure of endurance more than skill.

If sporting were like those sports, no one could afford to shoot it...too many shootoffs.

[double down]

This is the primary reason sporting clays has experienced pathetic growth over the past decade and a half. 99.9% of the range owners and target setters have absolutly no clue how to present the targets to be fair and challenging. So what you end up with are targets presentations full of very short windows, gimicks, excessive distances and speed.

[ranger]

Pathetic growth for Sporting Clays in the last decade and a half? I think that SC is steadily growing with new ranges and new shooters being added steadily.

I disagree with that observation.

[double down]

Pathetic is 100% accurate. The NSCA shows a consitant annual growth of approximately 8% with less than 20,000 members total since day one. Consider 4-5 marketplaces generate 90% of that growth. League and recreational shooters are a minimal number but it's hard to actually pin point what the figure is since ego or half truths seem to find their way into the discussion about target volume. We throw 3.5 million targets to league and recreational shooters every season and another 500,000 to 1 million competitive targets depending on the shoot schedule.

When you say new ranges are opening and new shooters are finding the game that's true to a point. I'll ask you to research how many facilities last longer than 18 months and then actually grow into a profitable operation. Shooters are leaving the game at a faster rate than they are arriving because of poor experiences, cost - value perception, and half assed facilities. I would compare it to havng golf courses with 14 holes and half of them don't have greens or there missing hole's on the putting green. Premier facilities are few and far between and this limits the growth of the sport in many ways.

[ranger]

DoubleDown - I think your last post identifies a central problem of SC. Many join the sport with the outlook of Golf and they want high-dollar, manicured facilities - this costs money and those with a country club outlook are willing to pay those fees.

Many others join from a hunting or other recreational shooting background - they want good targets and are perfectly happy with austere courses and clubhouses - they are not willing to pay high fees.

The sport is torn between two groups with dramatically different outlooks and needs to satisfy.

This is further complicated by the fact that among the two groups above - some shoot for recreation and do not compete while others are fiercely competitive.

I fit into the competitive shooter who wants tough targets and is willing to accept less than country club surroundings.

[double down]

Ranger,

Premier facilities and high target costs are not always hand in hand. If you were to come to my facility you would find 50 bird fees in the $15 - $18 range. You choose which of the 5 courses to shoot because they are all active at all times. Your targets will be thrown from close to 100 pro-matic electric traps, and you'll find the surrounding to be exceptional.

To keep the competitive shooters happy we have several competition only courses that see very limited use so the presentations stay fresh. Even on the non competition courses the presentations change every few weeks to keep things fresh.

If more course owners would take the same approach the sport would grow into something many people think isn't possible. There are a few of us that have figured out what it takes to succeed. Build and they will come fits very well to this situation. Look at the success golf enjoys at every level in rural areas and metropolitan areas. A cheap golf course costs far more than a clays facility.

[ranger]

Double Down - I would love to vivist and shoot your course. Where are you located?

In middle Georgia, we pay $20 per round of a 100 birds at the Meadows or Ocmulgee ranges. The fees rise to $25-45 per 100 throughout the rest of the state. 100 targets is the standard here.

I encourage you to do a search for the Social Shooting Club. This is an organized (500+) group of SC shooters who do not have a home range but who travel all over GA ( and AL, FL, SC) shooting for $35 per 100 targets. I belive this is one formula for busness success for SC.

[double down]

Ranger, we're just outside of Minneapolis or about 20 minutes south of the Mall of America / airport area. You have a standing invitation to drop by anytime and we'll go shoot. Do you shoot FITASC events? The UK / US Masters event we host is a great shoot with excellent national and international competitors.

I found the website for the social shooting club, it's a very good concept. It would be nice to see more geographic area's start similar programs.

[ranger]

Thanks for the invitation. If I am ever in the area, I will certainly visit. I have heard positive references to the UK/US Masters event on a shotgun forum.