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Mr. B

Mags on belt during Classifier

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Shot a classifier today at a club I don't shoot at as often as some others.

At my regular club, during a classifier we try to get folks to have quite a few magazines available for the various starts on the strings of fire. I have found that having 5 mags is handy for each stage, with each mag loaded to division capacity. That way I can just quickly strip a few rounds out for the downloaded starts. Its faster, and when several shooters do this all that saved time adds up to an easier day for everyone, especially the RO's.

So today, I step to the line to shoot stage 2, with my usual accoutrements for a classifier, meaning 5 mags. Three on the belt and two shoved in the small pockets on the front of my 511 pants. All of the pouches were stowed behind the seam on the pants leg, like they are supposed to me. On the Load and Make ready command, I didn't think anything of pulling a mag from one of the pockets and loading the weapon. As soon as I holstered, the RO says to me "I'm gonna tell you right now that if you start shooting with that extra mag on your belt we're gonna have a problem."

First off, the phrase "I'm gonna tell you right now" instantly annoys me. It raises my hackles just from the confrontational way it is phrased and presented. However, I know some folks think using that phrase is somehow clever or cute, so I try to overlook it when I can.

I took a mag off my belt and shoved it in my pocket to make the RO happy, and lightly said something like, "Well, just trying to save some time between strings, it is just a classifier course today." The RO responded with "Well, we don't want you folks to get into the habit of having too many mags on your belt."

'We'? Who is 'we'? And since 'we' is so concerned about how many mags are on my belt during a course of fire that holds NO tactical advantage for additional mag placement, why isn't 'we' concerned about 'us folks' shooting with no cover garment, or performing standing reloads without heading for cover, or using shooting boxes and fault lines? I guess 'we' assumes that 'us folks' can handle the mental challenge of unlearning those bad habits that are written into the classifier course of fire, but oh no, having a 3rd mag on your belt after the buzzer will be permanently burned into your memory and haunt you with FTDR penalties for the rest of your shooting life..

I could understand an RO reminding me of the 'mags on belt' rule before or after the course of fire, just to make sure I know that it is another of the 'classifier only' anomalies that aren't used in regular matches. That's fine. But to have an RO act as if he wanted to issue a FTDR or DQ over something that was intended to make his day shorter and easier seems a little over the top. I still did reasonably well for that stage, but I was thinking more about the irony of being admonished for trying to be considerate than the course of fire. It probably slowed me down a few seconds. I forgot what I was supposed to do for string one (advancing while shooting) for a second, while I regathered myself.

Anyway, my question is, should I just bring a box of ammo and load my two mags as needed for each string and forget about trying to streamline the process? Seems kinda silly to me considering all the other rules that are bent and/or broken during a classifier, but what is your opinion?

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LOL I was getting ready to post a "What the hell are you talking about?" until I realized it was in the IDPA forum.

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When we shoot the classifier at our club we load our mags up to the max to save time. I see no harm in carrying extra mags on your belt during the classifier.

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sounds like this RO had a stick up his rear end. at my club we have everyone load the mags up to capacity and we recommend shooters bring 4-5 mags to speed up the process.

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While I do not shoot IDPA, I am familiar with this type of issue in USPSA. The rules is the rules is the rules. If everyone doesn't follow them, then they cease to be rules and become suggestions. THAT SAID...

Most people don't have a big issue at local matches with something that isn't a safety issue and doesn't give the shooter an advantage. In your particular case, this would appear to be the obvious answer but it's clear that the RO wants people to abide by the strict letter of the rules regardless. And from an RO perspective, he is correct. But it would also seem that he has a bit of attitude about this, which doesn't help him make his case. But that's a different subject...

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The classifier is a series of limited strings and stages. There is no competitive advantage to having extra magazines on your belt. The same goes for how many are loaded in each mag. Your SO needs to relax a little.

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Thanks to everyone for assuring me that I wasn't alone in thinking the situation a little weird. As far as the "rule is a rule" mentality, Graham, I can understand that I guess, but the way the RO handled it seemed poorly done in my opinion. Oh well. We all have our bad days, maybe that was one of his.

Oh BTW, on the flip side of the coin, I think loading to division capacity in a classifier is a rule that should be adhered to. The gun draws, shoots, and recoils different with 17 rounds in it vs. 10. I perfectly understand RO's who insist on sticking with that rule, since it can change a person's hits or splits (albeit only slightly). All my mags were division capacity except the downloaded start one.

Edited by Mr. B

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I'd take the FTDR for shoving the extra mag up the SO's arse. :devil:

That's not a FTDR... That's a DQ!!!

...and then I'd find a USPSA club and start going to their matches as soon as possible.... just kidding.... have fun and thank those that are volunteering their time so you can shoot. Without them, we don't have matches....

Edited by BillChunn

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Your SO may need to increase his dosage. But he is correct to make you aware of the rules.

At our classifiers we load our mags like this to make things go faster. Then you only need 3 mags and you run empty at the perfect time.

Stage 1: 9, 12, 9

Stage 2: 12, 6, 12

Stage 3: (Fill them all the way up)

It is very time consuming to start EVERY STRING loaded to division capacity, and few clubs do it. This has been beat to death elsewhere, and entered in to the Tiger Team rule book update wish list (by me and others). I hope this alternate loading will be explicitly allowed in the updated rule book.

Koski

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My first IDPA match back in the late 90's was a lot of fun. It stayed fun for probably 6 months,,,,then the range nazi's started showing up and invading all the local IDPA clubs I shot at in Iowa. And that started sucking all the fun out of IDPA for me. I haven't shot an IDPA match since the Clinton administration. I guess at some point, I should give it a try again.....

IDPA was really fun to me, before the invasion of the fun snatchers. In practice back then, there just seemed to be too many people that want want to bludgeon you to death with a rulebook even when you're following the rules....

I just got sick of the IDPA vs. USPSA crap that was going on then. I liked both games, however back then the difference was the people. I'm not blaming any sport here, I'm just saying the IDPA culture in central Iowa in the late 90's was toxic to me. I liked the game,,,,it was just a group of traveling buttheads that ruined it for me.

BUT, that was a long time ago in a land far far away, so maybe I'll get out there at some point and try again. Hmmmmm,,,,,that's an excuse to buy a concealment vest and maybe another gun. I better wait till spring before I even give that another thought considering what I've spent to get back up and running in USPSA.

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Your SO may need to increase his dosage. But he is correct to make you aware of the rules.

At our classifiers we load our mags like this to make things go faster. Then you only need 3 mags and you run empty at the perfect time.

Stage 1: 9, 12, 9

Stage 2: 12, 6, 12

Stage 3: (Fill them all the way up)

It is very time consuming to start EVERY STRING loaded to division capacity, and few clubs do it. This has been beat to death elsewhere, and entered in to the Tiger Team rule book update wish list (by me and others). I hope this alternate loading will be explicitly allowed in the updated rule book.

Koski

I would give you a procedural for not loading to division capacity.

I wouldn't give anyone else one for doing it, but I would give you one..... :devil:

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LOL I was getting ready to post a "What the hell are you talking about?" until I realized it was in the IDPA forum.

+1 on that.

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I think if you had used one of the three mags in carriers on your belt, this would have been a non-issue and you would be abiding by the current rules. I shoot a revolver and come to the line at each stage with three speedloaders in holders on my belt and two in my pants pockets (plus a few loose rounds too). LAMR is from my pants pockets, so the three on the belt are just like the start of a regular match's string. Bottom feeders can have three carriers on the belt, but only 2 may have mags in them at the start. I think we all want the classifiers to run smooth and fast. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone getting dinged for fishing mags out of their pockets during a classifier. Not taking sides here, but it's a game with rules. Let's try to follow them so the "Tribal" aspect (as Chris says) is minimalized. :unsure:

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Much ado over nothing. Come to the line legal with extra mags in your range bag which you brought to the line with you.

The solution to every problem is not to ignore the rules.

kr

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Mr. B.

5th Sunday of the Month? I think I know exactly where that classifier was. I believe that it's the same club where several squad mates are known to shout cover while you shoot. :surprise:

One of the many reasons I prefer the two clubs to the east. :cheers:

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:wub: You should have hugged the SO and went on..

While some of the other responses are "technically correct" this is the obvious answer.....cheers.gif

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Mr. B.

5th Sunday of the Month? I think I know exactly where that classifier was. I believe that it's the same club where several squad mates are known to shout cover while you shoot. :surprise:

One of the many reasons I prefer the two clubs to the east. :cheers:

Lol, yes, Bob, that's the one.

Also, one RO has a dandy time yelling cover before you even get close to a doorway, in anticipation of you possibly breaking cover when you get there I guess. (Kinda like getting a Nobel Peace prize for all the good things people think you are going to do...)

I like that club for the most part, though, so I don't let it get to me normally. They have a very fun Action Steel match, and their USPSA matches are decent. I just use their IDPA matches as practice anyway, so if I get dinged on a procedural I don't think is correct, I just re-calculate my score to see what it would have been without it and use that to judge my personal performance.

The only other thing that kind of annoys me is how often certain folks are allowed 'doubles'. One group I saw had four or five shooters, including two RO's, asking for doubles (or triples) on every target. 6 hits on paper when there should be 10 (classifier) was suddenly 9 hits. One shooter had 8 hits, 6 hits, and 7 hits on paper for stage 3 and asked for three doubles and a triple. I didn't say anything, cause if they want to grand-bag a classifier, the only person being cheated is the one who asked for it. I just hope those folks aren't doing that during a normal match.

Edited by Mr. B

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