45 GAP

[Chills1994]

I can understand (regardless of agreement) why .40 S&W is not allowed, because it would change the game drastically because .40 would have a large advantage because of the smaller frame / higher round count in magazines. It would turn CDP into something more like Limited Major where it's almost exclusively .40 S&W.

What I don't understand is why not just give everyone their own division?

SSP 9mm/38super

SSP .40s&w/357sig

SSP .45acp/gap/10mm

ESP 9mm/38super

ESP .40S&W / .357 Sig

CDP .45 ACP/GAP, 10mm

JMB .45 ACP (1911s only)

No changes in scoring, so there is no change in procedure, just more specific classes or divisions, whatever they are.

Note: everyone would still have to make major and minor power factors.

Just go to 4 divisions total based on power factor, regardless of action type:

MAJSAP = major PF semi auto pistol, .40's, 10mm, .45 ACP, .45 GAP holding 8+1

MINSAP = minor PF, mainly the 9's, but can also be .45's, .40's etc loaded 10+1

MAJREV = major PF revolver, .357 Magnum's, .41's, .40's, 10mm, .44 Mag, .45 ACP, .45 LC regardless of how they are fed (heck, I might even let the 7 and 8 shooters play if at major PF)

MINREV = minor PF revolver, .38 short colt, .38Spl, 9mm

[Alaskapopo]

"Single Stack allows other calibers."

Yeah, but "Single Stack" doesn't really mean "single stack", does it? It really means "1911". I can't use a 945, 745, 4506 or Sig P220, 952, etc. even though they have single stack magazines.

This may be the only instance where IDPA is more rational/easier to understand than USPSA - savor it.

Craig

That is incorrect in single stack you must use a 1911 only. Single stack is kind of a morph of ESP and CDP with 1911's only in one division.

Right out of the rule book.

Special conditions:

— Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public

and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John

M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory

originals are acceptable. Frames must be meta

Edited October 4, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Bones]

That is incorrect in single stack you must use a 1911 only. Single stack is kind of a morph of ESP and CDP with 1911's only in one division.

Right out of the rule book.

Special conditions:

— Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public

and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John

M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory

originals are acceptable. Frames must be meta

?

I think we are both saying the same thing.

Isn't that what I wrote - that only Single Stack 1911s may compete in USPSA Single Stack and that you may not use any Single Stack pistol -it must be a JMB 1911 design?

Single Stack is not a "morph" of anything - it must be a single stack 1911.

Niether IDPA CDP nor IDPA ESP specify gun or magazine design. You can shoot a 945, Sig P220, M&P45, Springfield XD, etc. in either. They IDPA ESP and IDPA CDP) are both more inclusive/less restrictive relative to design/gun type than USPSA Single Stack.

If everything else in the IDPA rule book were as clear, obvious, descriptive and easly measurable as the CDP Division equipment requirements there would be fewer locked threads on internet forums.

Craig

Edited October 4, 2012 by Bones

[jmorris]

I am sure that makes sense to somebody ... :-)

The rules don't have to pass a "sense" test. They are simply rules you must follow to avoid penalties and/or disqualification.

[Bob Hostetter]

<< the rules don't have to pass a sense test >>

When it comes to IDPA your statement is very true and the rulebook is full of proof of that.

But I think you are missing the point. That point being I, and apparently some other people, were wondering the reason why the rule is the way it is because it just doesn't make sense to us the way it is currently written. In the early days the caliber rules were explained as being what they were to ensure that competitors were using full power cartridges making at least a certain power factor. But more recently that no longer seems to be the reason as evidenced by the removal of the 10mm and the exclusion of all other calibers that make power factor, so I/we were just asking. And while your somewhat condescending answer is accurate and typically IDPA'ish, it is lacking in intellectual content and thus leaves most of us still curious.

And at least until the new tigger team rule book comes out it is still ok to politely discuss the rules, even in IDPA.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Bob Hostetter

[jmorris]

That point being I, and apparently some other people, were wondering the reason why the rule is the way it is because it just doesn't make sense to us the way it is currently written.

Again, if you try to make sense of IDPA rules, your going to wind up wearing a straight jacket inside of a padded room.

The reason why is because the main player when they changed the rules to only allow 45 ACP wanted a "home of the 45acp" division. I think we should be thankfull that we can compete in that class with something other than a wilson combat 45 ACP.

Other rules were not based on "this is the way I want it" but rather simply to be unIPSC, so you wind up having to retain a magizine that is completely empty if your not at slide lock. Again use caution if you try and make sense of some of the rules.

while your somewhat condescending answer is accurate and typically IDPA'ish, it is lacking in intellectual content and thus leaves most of us still curious.

Didn't intend be condescending but threads get locked all the time for bashing IDPA's rules and if you break them all down and justify each and everyone its difficult to come up with any reason other than the two above.

USPSA rules are like many other sports in that they are well documented and thought out. IDPA's rules are more like a parents rules, "Because I said so." Like all of the "MD's discretion" clauses.

Edited October 9, 2012 by jmorris

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Other rules were not based on "this is the way I want it" but rather simply to be unIPSC, so you wind up having to retain a magizine that is completely empty if your not at slide lock. Again use caution if you try and make sense of some of the rules.

There's a difference between what makes sense in a simulated gun fight and what makes sense in a gun-sport meant to prepare you for a gun fight. In the game, where you can plan out your run through the course of fire, you can easily count exactly how many rounds you've shot and when to change mags. If the game is meant to prepare you for emergency reloads, it needs to nudge you toward making slide-lock reloads.

[Steve Koski]

...and not counting rounds and reloading at 10.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Steve Koski

[GOF]

Or, since we're talking CDP, maybe not counting rounds and reloading at 6, 7, or 8 (whatever the personal preference is) just like you would do it in the Real World... and yes, another kitten made it into my stew. Thank God there's plenty of kittens to go around.

[Seeker]

IDPA is IDPA period. There are many rules that make me scratch my head and wonder if the founders main concern was to insure that what was appropriate and acceptable in USPSA would be out and out against the rules in IDPA. But after we all the talk, discussions and posting, it is what it is.

We play the game by the rules, period. If we consider it purely a game in which we want to excel and have the highest scores, we procure the equipment that will give us a competitive edge within that division. Furthermore we also tailor a load that just meets the power floor. This is no different that any other competitive sport. Some may also consider a down loaded .40 may be more gentle than an equivalent 9mm.

However If the IDPA participant treats it like practice and preparedness for a self defense encounter, then scores should not matter. That person is free to run any "IDPA" approved deep concealment holster, and pouches, preferably a normal cover garment and not the ubiquitous vest that is only found at IDPA competitions.

Finally, caliber and power floor should not be a consideration since that person wants to simulate real world situations.

So the rules are the rules until IDPA decides that it's in "their" best interest to modify the rules. And we will live with them.

[GmanCdp]

Yes i know it's not idpa,but look at what caliber has won the SS nationals for the past several years,and I think that is why CDP is still a45acp division.. Not apologizing for anything ,but I think CDP should stay the way it is.

[jmorris]

However If the IDPA participant treats it like practice and preparedness for a self defense encounter, then scores should not matter.

Although I am not one of the folks that look at IDPA as "training", I agree with your point and in that case they can shoot 10mm or 40 S&W in CDP their scores, not mattering will simply be DQ. If your really into "training" and don't care about winning why not just shoot full power loads in ESP and you'll get to see your scores.

[FightFireJay]

However If the IDPA participant treats it like practice and preparedness for a self defense encounter, then scores should not matter.

Although I am not one of the folks that look at IDPA as "training", I agree with your point and in that case they can shoot 10mm or 40 S&W in CDP their scores, not mattering will simply be DQ. If your really into "training" and don't care about winning why not just shoot full power loads in ESP and you'll get to see your scores.

Without scores, we would have no metric for judging our improvement. If it were REALLY for training, I'd be encouraged to stuff the gun with as many rounds as it can take and we wouldn't need to have separate divisions/classes.

When I originally started looking into shooting sports I liked the IDEA of IDPA over USPSA. Now that I understand what is and isn't allowed, I think I'll stick to using shooting my gun in at practice matches under he Limited banner so I can shoot it the way it was made (with a full OEM magazine) and the way it is with what ever sights and refinishing and stippled grip I want to put on it.

I WANT to believe in IDPA because it's more "practical". But I don't find that to be true.

[Seeker]

When I first typed "However If the IDPA participant treats it like practice and preparedness for a self defense encounter, then scores should not matter" I did not mean that a participant should shoot for no score. I meant that beating everyone in your division at any cost should not be the primary concern, but that monthly improvement can be the metrics. There is a division for most firearms. .40,10mm, .45gap all have a home in ESP. .44mag has a home in ESR. I also did not want this to become a discussion of the "purpose or Spirit" of IDPA. I admit that the guns (5" 1911's)and ammo 135pf, 170pf I use for IDPA are optimized for their competitive nature. My Carry gun is a 4.25" 1911 with stock everything. My carry ammo is 190PF. I do train using this gear, but not during a IDPA competition. This concept is similar to the participants that uses a G34 with is designated "Competition" on the Glock website for IDPA, but carries a G19 or G26. To make a long story short, if the IDPA participant treats it as practice and preparedness for a self defense encounter, then they should not be concerned how their times are relative to those that are using equipment optimized for competition. There is room for both types in our sport. Many shooters that I know personally, start out as wanting to fine tune their street skills but quickly optimize their equipment to maximize competitiveness. As with everything. YMMV

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

As Ron Larimer's analysis of the IDPA Nationals shows, there is very, very little difference between the divisions, so I doubt .45 GAP (or .40) would make much difference against .45 ACP.

[Bob Hostetter]

It would however open it up to additional platforms

[jmorris]

Like I said in #31, I think that was not the intent of turning it into a 8 round 45 acp only class.