Forcing activation of prop at level 2

[DrawandDuck]

here is the stage in question thanks to Bo...

[GmanCdp]

my Sons gun EJECTOR broke on this stage ,so he was shooting a single shot in SS starting on the last 4 targets before the movers..he still managed to get 2 on the 1st mover,then just single shot the visable heads on the clam shell targets and moved over the the last position for the other mover...almost zeroed the stage ,hahaha ..

30.6498 stage points

1.3511 hit factor

56.99 time

RM came over before the match and xplained to our squad what was going on,and we all agreed to shoot it like the RO's did..and it was a fun stage..

good match all around..i came in 7th OA production..

Edited October 1, 2012 by GmanCdp

[hopalong]

Good afternoon Ladies, and Gentlemen.

First of all, The OP has every option to ask his question and it is a viable question.

I (Sam Keen) was the RM at this match (already known) and I did not make this decision fast, or without consultation from others including 5 CROs (3 that have been to many nationals) and 1 Range Master Instructor for NROI.

Behind the scenes where nobody but Me, the Match Director and said RMI had a 10 minute discussion about this stage Saturday morning. Prior to anybody shooting Because this had slipped through the crack Friday and 4 squads shot the stage (2 of the CROs with Nats experiance) and nobody caught it until Saturday AM all 3 of us agreed that yes it turned out to be an illegal LII stage, but 4 squads had shot it the day previous. The rule book says(not quoting numbers as many of you already have) that if you think it is illegal you can arb it up to when you shoot it.

Prior to the Fist shot on Saturday I made the announcement that I had missed catching it and since Friday shooters had shot it that way it was to be shot that way or Arbitrated according to the rule book. Then the Arbitration committee would take care of it.

Someone prior posted that they heard if it was arbitrated that they would lose. I did NOT say that, I said the arbitation committe would handle it. and that is what would have happened. We have rules just for this purpose and I as RM and the Match Director told everyone the options according to the rulebook, and my RMI agreed.

We would have done what the Arbitration committee said to do(thats the rules), and knowing who we would have gotten for the committee only those who shot that stage on Friday would have gotten to shoot that stage and had the fun and challenge of getting to see if they could do it.(Tossed like rotten cabbage)

I as Range Master and NROI read the initial walk throughs sent with the stages for approval and we all thought it was a good stage. Once it was on the ground and shot on Friday after the 4 squads had already shot it did it get caught and that is when I initialed it (because it had already been shot that way and I couldn't get every one back to reshoot it).

Yes it slipped through the crack, and Saturday morning it was caught. I explained to everyone there on the range my only options allowed to me by the Rule book and how to go about those options.

That was the best way I, my RMI contact and the Match Director could come up to fix a screw up. Not the first one I've ever done, and NOT gonna be the last. I can tell you, that I will take this experience and apply it to the next time I'm RM if this situation comes up. (I've been asked to be the 2013 Alabama and 2013 Tn section RM so there is fore warning for those who did not like the way I and the Match Staff and NROI officials handled it)

Again,

Thanks to all who came I hope they enjoyed the whole match including the Famous Illegal stage, and please come back next year if you can. We will try very hard to come up with more and exciting stages and try our hardest to hold them and the match staff to the rules written in the book as that is what makes our sport so great.

Please let me add. If you are given incorrect range commands at any match LI- LV it is your obligation to bring that up to the match staff, be it the other ROs on the stage, the CRO or the RM. If it goes uncorrected it is not just their fault after that. As Range master I did correct several of my staff on range commands, but It is not very good to hear about poor range commands by your staff after the fact and too late to correctly teach match management to these Highly Paid Professionals called Range officers (being cynical there)

Respectfully,

Hopalong

[Coach]

So here is a thought that makes some sense:

Stages are sent to NROI and approved for legality - those stages should be signed and the SIGNED WSB's should be posted on each stage. The ONLY changes should be for SAFETY reasons. I can bet that NROI wouldn't approve a L2 match forcing a competitor to activate something prior to engaging if its wide open or shooting from a certain area.

If its not in the SIGNED NROI WSB then it doesnt count.

Is that too much to ask?

Yes. Have you ever put on a major match? This is not a working situation for several valid reasons.

[justaute]

Sam,

All things considered, it was a terrific match. As you are aware, things tend to get blown out of proportion on the "interweb" these days. The stages were fun, challenging and people were great. You definitely have a winner. Keep up the nice work.

In regard to range commands, well, there were quite a few varieties. I tried to "nicely" help with the proper commands on one of the stages, but was not received well. On the drive home, I was talking to my buddy about ways to remedy this issue. Perhaps, the correct commands may be emphasized, printed, and then handed out to the staff. Maybe USPSA management should require the commands be printed on the WSB and have the staff just read from it. Not sure. It certainly is interesting that people can't seem to use/follow a few simple phrases.

I am of the mind-set that if people volunteer to be RO, then they should learn to use the proper commands. You, the RM, can't police everything and everyone 24/7. We all make mistakes. It's how we respond to them that really matters.

Edited October 1, 2012 by justaute

[Coach]

Nik wrote:

Yes. Have you ever run a major USPSA match? Designed and built and officiated a stage at one?

Nik, you posed the same question to me a couple of weeks ago.

The vast majority of USPSA'ers aren't ever going to RO/MD/RM a major match.

So does that make their comments/opinions/criticism as a paying customer at some major match any less valid?

Their points may or may not be valid, and they should always be listened to and taken for what they are worth. The attitude of I am a paying customer and I demand x,y or z. Is a little troubling for me. The staff who are doing the work and the organizing are paying customers as well. Should the match follow the rules? Absolutely and there is no excuse from not doing that. There should be enough experienced people involved with a match that the match follows all the rules.

However, sometimes shooters make suggestion like posting signed copies of stage diagrams that were approved so that everyone knows this is what is approved and it is legal. If we did that every target that has been moved will cause the range lawyers to go into high gear. That is a suggestion that an experienced staff person would know from the start that will not work out. My point being that experience does matter.

I fully sympathize with the OP. This seems like a situation that should never have happened. At this point contacting NROI seems to be the thing to do.

[DrawandDuck]

OK, lets contact the NROI...what are they going to do...Put the TN Section in the illegal stage jail???? Tell them they can't spend the countless hours involved to put on a SUPER match next year? Put Sam and staff into a time out? I do not know WHY this is such a big deal to some....there are ALOT of other things out there to worry about than not being able to shoot this static target before you stomped on the pad......really guys. In my opinion it was handled correctly and everyone shot the stage in the same manor. As for range commands I was not given a improper command at any of the stages, in fact, at the first stage Sat. morning same came by and touched base with the RO's and told them to make sure to use the correct commands and asked if they knew them....it is a sport not a court of law here.

[justaute]

No need to use hyperbole. A few of use are actually trying to provide useful, not antagonistic, feedback.

OK, lets contact the NROI...what are they going to do...Put the TN Section in the illegal stage jail???? Tell them they can't spend the countless hours involved to put on a SUPER match next year? Put Sam and staff into a time out? I do not know WHY this is such a big deal to some....there are ALOT of other things out there to worry about than not being able to shoot this static target before you stomped on the pad......really guys. In my opinion it was handled correctly and everyone shot the stage in the same manor. As for range commands I was not given a improper command at any of the stages, in fact, at the first stage Sat. morning same came by and touched base with the RO's and told them to make sure to use the correct commands and asked if they knew them....it is a sport not a court of law here.

Edited October 1, 2012 by justaute

[38SuperDub]

I agree with Randall that this is a sport not a court of law. However, competitors are held to the division rules 100% with no exceptions. There is a rule book for a reason lets hold everyone to it.

If I'm not mistake the concept of the sport is for me to be given a stage and told to find the fastest and best way for me as a B class shooter to shoot it. Not the best way for everyone or the best way for Randall but the best way for me. As long as its within the rules, let me do it. Nobody had a problem with me throwing a mag at a port on stage 7, why because it was a stupid idea. Had it been a faster way would Forbidden action be used?

All I expect is that matches follow the same blue rule book that they ask the competitors to follow. The rules are there to be fair and to be safe.

As far as the match goes I had a blast. The stages were fun and tough. The weather was awesome and we finished 2 hours ahead of schedule on Saturday. I don't want to put down anyone for their volunteering of time lets just try to follow the rules

And get rid of forbidden action for hindering creativity!!!!!!!!

[sperman]

Good afternoon Ladies, and Gentlemen.

...

Respectfully,

Hopalong

Regardless of the specifics of this stage, it is hard not to respect a man who is willing to lay the facts on the table, admit he made a mistake, and do his best not to repeat it in the future.

Thank you, Sam.

[38SuperDub]

I agree. I alway enjoy seeing Sam and Elizabeth at matches. Thanks for the hard work Sam!!!!

[DrawandDuck]

No need to use hyperbole. A few of use are actually trying to provide useful, not antagonistic, feedback.

OK, lets contact the NROI...what are they going to do...Put the TN Section in the illegal stage jail???? Tell them they can't spend the countless hours involved to put on a SUPER match next year? Put Sam and staff into a time out? I do not know WHY this is such a big deal to some....there are ALOT of other things out there to worry about than not being able to shoot this static target before you stomped on the pad......really guys. In my opinion it was handled correctly and everyone shot the stage in the same manor. As for range commands I was not given a improper command at any of the stages, in fact, at the first stage Sat. morning same came by and touched base with the RO's and told them to make sure to use the correct commands and asked if they knew them....it is a sport not a court of law here.

Yep, but beating a dead horse gets old real quick...Sam and crew was aware of the issue Friday afternoon and explained it before the 1st shot Sat....he has since covered it in his post.

Edited October 2, 2012 by DrawandDuck

[Nik Habicht]

Good afternoon Ladies, and Gentlemen.

...

Respectfully,

Hopalong

Regardless of the specifics of this stage, it is hard not to respect a man who is willing to lay the facts on the table, admit he made a mistake, and do his best not to repeat it in the future.

Thank you, Sam.

I couldn't agree more -- and having been in similar positions, I'm certain it was a frustrating realization....

[justaute]

Not every comment is about the said match. The range commands issue is quite prevalent. I'm just a 2nd year shooter, and every major I attended had that issue. Just trying find a better mouse-trap.

"NOTHING in MODERATION what I always say!!!"

Edited October 1, 2012 by justaute

[lynn jones]

were you not entertained?

[38SuperDub]

Oh it was def a blast - All that going on at the same instant sorta freaked me out that is for sure!!!!

Thanks again for a good match Lynn - if points are never brought up they will keep being repeated.

Brandon

[beltjones]

Good afternoon Ladies, and Gentlemen.

First of all, The OP has every option to ask his question and it is a viable question.

I (Sam Keen) was the RM at this match (already known) and I did not make this decision fast, or without consultation from others including 5 CROs (3 that have been to many nationals) and 1 Range Master Instructor for NROI.

Behind the scenes where nobody but Me, the Match Director and said RMI had a 10 minute discussion about this stage Saturday morning. Prior to anybody shooting Because this had slipped through the crack Friday and 4 squads shot the stage (2 of the CROs with Nats experiance) and nobody caught it until Saturday AM all 3 of us agreed that yes it turned out to be an illegal LII stage, but 4 squads had shot it the day previous. The rule book says(not quoting numbers as many of you already have) that if you think it is illegal you can arb it up to when you shoot it.

Prior to the Fist shot on Saturday I made the announcement that I had missed catching it and since Friday shooters had shot it that way it was to be shot that way or Arbitrated according to the rule book. Then the Arbitration committee would take care of it.

Someone prior posted that they heard if it was arbitrated that they would lose. I did NOT say that, I said the arbitation committe would handle it. and that is what would have happened. We have rules just for this purpose and I as RM and the Match Director told everyone the options according to the rulebook, and my RMI agreed.

We would have done what the Arbitration committee said to do(thats the rules), and knowing who we would have gotten for the committee only those who shot that stage on Friday would have gotten to shoot that stage and had the fun and challenge of getting to see if they could do it.(Tossed like rotten cabbage)

I as Range Master and NROI read the initial walk throughs sent with the stages for approval and we all thought it was a good stage. Once it was on the ground and shot on Friday after the 4 squads had already shot it did it get caught and that is when I initialed it (because it had already been shot that way and I couldn't get every one back to reshoot it).

Yes it slipped through the crack, and Saturday morning it was caught. I explained to everyone there on the range my only options allowed to me by the Rule book and how to go about those options.

That was the best way I, my RMI contact and the Match Director could come up to fix a screw up. Not the first one I've ever done, and NOT gonna be the last. I can tell you, that I will take this experience and apply it to the next time I'm RM if this situation comes up. (I've been asked to be the 2013 Alabama and 2013 Tn section RM so there is fore warning for those who did not like the way I and the Match Staff and NROI officials handled it)

Again,

Thanks to all who came I hope they enjoyed the whole match including the Famous Illegal stage, and please come back next year if you can. We will try very hard to come up with more and exciting stages and try our hardest to hold them and the match staff to the rules written in the book as that is what makes our sport so great.

Please let me add. If you are given incorrect range commands at any match LI- LV it is your obligation to bring that up to the match staff, be it the other ROs on the stage, the CRO or the RM. If it goes uncorrected it is not just their fault after that. As Range master I did correct several of my staff on range commands, but It is not very good to hear about poor range commands by your staff after the fact and too late to correctly teach match management to these Highly Paid Professionals called Range officers (being cynical there)

Respectfully,

Hopalong

What I don't understand is this: Who came up with the idea that the box had to be stomped before engaging the targets? It's not in the written stage description that I can tell, so how did this information get passed around? If you later added that tidbit just because 4 squads happened to shoot it that way, then I think you messed up. Otherwise, if it's not in the written description, why make it illegal if it doesn't need to be illegal? It doesn't make sense to me.

[hopalong]

It was in the walk through. I missed it on Friday and could not rectify the situation because most of all 4 of the squads had gone home by Saturday AM.

The best way we could come up with the answer to the problem was:

Admit we(I) missed it on Friday. Tell everyone to shoot it like written, and IF they didn't like it the rules were to go to arbitration (WE/I did) and let the Arbitration committee handle it (like the rule book says). No one took it to arbitration where I'm 99.9% sure it would have been thrown out of the match.

A learning experience for sure.

Hopalong

[hopalong]

You are Welcome Sperman

Hop

[Poppa Bear]

Sam, great explanation of what does happen in a major match. I could not see the problem with shooting the target as a stationary prior to the activation. Things like this happen once the stage hits the ground and you just need to adapt to the situation. Target sits wide open so you shoot it as seen. Not the way you wanted it shot, but it happens.

Finding that it was shot Friday and caught on Saturday explains why it needed to stay as intended, and the order given to activate prior to engagement.

If someone arbs it and the committee agrees that the target was legal to shoot prior to activating the stomper the stage gets tossed. You try to change it on Saturday the stage gets tossed. Modify the WSB to require activation prior to engaging it and the stage gets to stay in the match. Tough call but the best possible outcome I can see.

[Skydiver]

If someone arbs it and the committee agrees that the target was legal to shoot prior to activating the stomper the stage gets tossed.

Why would it get tossed? It's not like the previous 4 squads didn't have the opportunity to shoot it while it was stationary. It was just that they were not creative enough to think of it at that time. Those 4 squads had (or should have had) the same WSB that the later squads had. If the original WSB didn't say that the target must be activated prior to engaging, it's a failure of imagination on those shooters.

It's like if halfway through the match somebody finds a way to shoot a stage faster (perhaps by retreating rather than going forward like everybody else did), are you now going to say that everybody must shoot the stage going forward because everybody else did it that way, otherwise the stage will get tossed?

[Skydiver]

I applaud Sam for being upfront and letting us know what happened. I like the way that door was left open so that if somebody really felt strongly about the stage, they could have appealed it if they wanted to. Sounds like a great match. I hope to make it there next year.

[Sin-ster]

What I don't understand is this: Who came up with the idea that the box had to be stomped before engaging the targets? It's not in the written stage description that I can tell, so how did this information get passed around? If you later added that tidbit just because 4 squads happened to shoot it that way, then I think you messed up. Otherwise, if it's not in the written description, why make it illegal if it doesn't need to be illegal? It doesn't make sense to me.

That's my question as well, for future reference. Perhaps we're just not understanding the situation...

If 4 squads rolled through on Friday, and no one chose to shoot it that way (before the WSB was changed/FA declared), is the onus of not seeing that "advantage" not placed on those shooters?

I dunno, I guess I'm too much of a gamer. I honestly feel that if the last shooter on the last day of the match finds a loophole somewhere that everyone else missed... More power to him for having the good eyes.

[Nik Habicht]

It was in the walk through. I missed it on Friday and could not rectify the situation because most of all 4 of the squads had gone home by Saturday AM.

The best way we could come up with the answer to the problem was:

Admit we(I) missed it on Friday. Tell everyone to shoot it like written, and IF they didn't like it the rules were to go to arbitration (WE/I did) and let the Arbitration committee handle it (like the rule book says). No one took it to arbitration where I'm 99.9% sure it would have been thrown out of the match.

A learning experience for sure.

Hopalong

If I read this post correctly, the Friday squads shot the stage with the same requirement in the WSB, hence removing the requirement would have changed the stage, and realistically required its removal form the match....

Given that the choices were to shoot it with the (against the rules) requirement to stomp on the box prior to engaging, or to lose and not shoot the stage, what would you prefer? And those are the only two choices -- I'm confident every would prefer perfection, but that doesn't seem to have been possible....

[ktm300]

First, I don't have a dog in the fight as I did not shoot the match but........

That looked like an amazing stage! It sure would have been a shame to toss it out. I am going to find a way to get to that match next year.

I have a lot of respect for the guys that take on the RM jobs. You could not pay me enough to do it, and they do it for free. I don't know this RM but I would like to work with him as he seems to be a stand up guy. I always learn a lot from good RMs, even when I disagree with them. He is the guy on the ground and has to make the call. Sounds like this was a hard one. He made the call and left the shooters a way to argue it.

As to range commands, I am not sure there is a way to be 100% sure that eveyone is doing it correctly but the way it was taught to me was on the day the RO's shot the match the RO's made a point of getting everyone to run shooters and correcting the people that did not use the correct commands. At my first LII I got corrected a few times and now they are stuck in my head. I hope they don't change them as that would take a while to get used to. At locals when someone tells me to "make it hot", I turn and ask them "did you mean Make Ready?"

Just my 2 cents.