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Along the same lines as the "Are you ready" thread....


GrumpyOne

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Didn't want to hijack the other thread....

Shooter is in shooting area, RO beside shooter.... RO says "make ready". Shooter makes ready. While making ready, the RO notices a popper fall in the stage that is being shot.

Question #1. Does the RO stop the shooter from starting the cof, and if so, what are the range commands to do so? Shooter now has a loaded gun, holstered.

Question#2 If the RO stops the shooter from starting the cof, does the shooter unload and show clear?

Or does the RO let the entire thing unfold, knowing at the end there will be a reshoot?

Can a "STOP!" command be issued and the shooter is not required to ULSC?

Anything said by the RO after "make ready" has to be an official command, right? :ph34r:

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Not sure if this is official or not, but what happens in our range is the RO calls "stop", then instructs the shooter to stay put, place hands on top of head, another person goes downrange to reset steel/paper, etc. Once the range is clear the RO instructs the shooter to again "make ready" and proceeds from there.

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If it isafter make ready but before the start signal, the ROs we have usually make the shooter put their hands on their head and some one fixes the popper. After the popper is fixed and the range made hot again, the shooter is instructed to make ready to resume their routine.

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I don't recall this scenario addressed in the rule book. If it is, someone please point me to it.

Starting a shooter when the RO knows it will be a reshoot due to a REF makes no sense. What does make sense, to me anyway, is the RO telling the shooter to put their hands in an obvious location away from the gun, such as behind the head, cross arms, etc. Once the popper is reset and no one is downrange, give the shooter a few seconds to compose themself and continue with R U Ready, since they have already received the MR command.

Another valid option is ULSC, then MR after the popper (or other item) is reset. In that case, I would also give the shooter an opportunity to walk the COF one more time so their mind is right with their plan.

But that is just me.

Edited by remoandiris
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8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command

at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately

cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from

the Range Officer.

Don't need to complicate things, don't need to make them unload, correct problem, then start over at 8.3.2, 'Are you ready?"

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I used to do the hands on top of head thing. I've now adopted what I read from from this forum a few days months ago. I tell them "Stop." Explain what is going on, and stand directly in front of the shooter facing him, and keep eye contact. If the shooter wants to engage in smalltalk, it's up to them and I'll deviate from official range commands, but the idea is that a shooter really has to be out of it to draw a gun with a person standing just a two feet in front of them.

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I'm in the say "Stop" instruct shooter to put their hands on their head and have someone go downrange to fix the popper. I will add though, that as the RO, as soon as I say/yell "Stop" I will immediately explain to the shooter why and to have them relax, they did nothing wrong. There is nothing more nerve rattling as a shooter than hearing STOP yelled after or during handling your gun. The first thing through your mind is "WTF did I just do wrong?" Ease the shooters concerns right away and tell them about the popper.

I know Grumpy was probably posting a bunch of different scenarios to get a well rounded answer, but as a shooter, if I found out after running an entire COF that the RO knew a popper had fallen prior to the start signal, I would be PISSED. Not much recourse, but we would definitely be having some words after the fact.

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Not sure if this is official or not, but what happens in our range is the RO calls "stop", then instructs the shooter to stay put, place hands on top of head, another person goes downrange to reset steel/paper, etc. Once the range is clear the RO instructs the shooter to again "make ready" and proceeds from there.

This is exactly what happens around here. I would be a disservice to the shooter to let him start , just too reshoot . If you did it to me I would shoot one at the steel in question and call it good.

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WHY, WHY, WHY? Do ROs insist on making a shooter put his arms up over his head for an extended period of time prior to starting a COF? OK, A steel is down, tell the shooter to stand easy, step in front of him so that he would have to draw on you, MAYBE have him fold his arms across his chet if you are that much a nervous Nellie, have someone fix the range problem and then start the shooter. Having him stand there with his arms over his head is just plain wrong, Some people have circulation problems that this will exacerbate, others just he thier arms get tired. If you want me to do this, I will want to stand down as I will no longer be Ready.

I am all for safety, but if I trust you to run with a gun and shoot at targets that move while you are moving, open doors with a gun in one hand, etc., etc., etc. then I certainly should be able to trust you to stand easy while I stand in front of you, facing you while a range malfunction is cleared up.

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The point I was trying to make (I think anyway), was that if only "official" range commands are acceptable after the "make ready" command, then why isn't there something in the rules to deal with this situation? It's obvious that it is a common place occurrence, from all the posters in here, saying what they do in this situation, but there is nothing in writing. We have rules for just about everything imaginable, but not this potentially deadly situation?

Some say leave the shooter "hot", some say ULSC. Is there any other time, when it is acceptable for someone to go down range when someone is on the line with a loaded gun?

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The point I was trying to make (I think anyway), was that if only "official" range commands are acceptable after the "make ready" command, then why isn't there something in the rules to deal with this situation? It's obvious that it is a common place occurrence, from all the posters in here, saying what they do in this situation, but there is nothing in writing. We have rules for just about everything imaginable, but not this potentially deadly situation?

Some say leave the shooter "hot", some say ULSC. Is there any other time, when it is acceptable for someone to go down range when someone is on the line with a loaded gun?

They're still within Make Ready. You are blocking them from assuming the start position, and you are free to give safety warnings as you see fit.

If the gun is in the holster, it's inert and you are standing with the shooter - they can Pierrot and it won't matter, right - so where is DOWNRANGE when the gun is inert?

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We generally do the, "stop, popper down/target not taped/stage not reset/whatever" verbal command. Some just have the shooter cross their arms, others want over the head with fingers interlaced, either way meant to show no access to the gun for whomever is going down range to fix the problem.

Now I'm thinking, though, it might just be easier to go to ULASC/ICHDAH/range clear after the stop order and quickie explanation to the shooter.

Edited by kevin c
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The point I was trying to make (I think anyway), was that if only "official" range commands are acceptable after the "make ready" command, then why isn't there something in the rules to deal with this situation? It's obvious that it is a common place occurrence, from all the posters in here, saying what they do in this situation, but there is nothing in writing. We have rules for just about everything imaginable, but not this potentially deadly situation?

Some say leave the shooter "hot", some say ULSC. Is there any other time, when it is acceptable for someone to go down range when someone is on the line with a loaded gun?

They're still within Make Ready. You are blocking them from assuming the start position, and you are free to give safety warnings as you see fit.

If the gun is in the holster, it's inert and you are standing with the shooter - they can Pierrot and it won't matter, right - so where is DOWNRANGE when the gun is inert?

The gun is not inert if its loaded and in the holster. If a loaded gun, in a holster, is inert, then why does USPSA run cold ranges?

Downrange is not defined in the rulebook. Facing uprange is, but not downrange.

Like I asked, if only official commands are to be used after MR, then what do you say to the shooter?

What safety infraction are you warning him about? The shooter has done nothing wrong, therefore a warning is not in order...

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

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I don't understand the hand on the head. We have up range starts where you are standing with a loaded and holstered gun facing a crowd of people and no one is concerned that you might suddenly draw your gun and start shooting if you don't have your hands on your head. It should be stand there relaxed or STOP and ULSC.

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at our local matches we have the shooter face up range and put their hands on their head. The RO stands facing them, so there is no confusion.

I think we should tie the shooters hands behind their back. :blink:

I'm with Jim. If the shooter knows someone is downrange, and the RO is standing in front of them, who cares where their hands are?

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What safety infraction are you warning him about? The shooter has done nothing wrong, therefore a warning is not in order...

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

I think this qualifies as a safety warning:

"Hey Grumpy, JimBob is going to go downrange and reset that popper. How about keeping your hands off the gun until he gets back."

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I used to do the hands on top of head thing. I've now adopted what I read from from this forum a few days months ago. I tell them "Stop." Explain what is going on, and stand directly in front of the shooter facing him, and keep eye contact. If the shooter wants to engage in smalltalk, it's up to them and I'll deviate from official range commands, but the idea is that a shooter really has to be out of it to draw a gun with a person standing just a two feet in front of them.

This whole hands up thing is too much -- if we can't trust them not to draw on the person resetting steel, we can't trust them to be in the match in the first place. Sky has the right idea -- face the shooter, on the downrange side, chat if he wants to. If you're at conversational distance, you're close enough to lay hands on the competitos, in the extremely unlikely event that he tries to react to a buzzer on the next bay, while you're standing there......

If you ask me to place my hands on my head, I'll decline and offer to unload.....

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The point I was trying to make (I think anyway), was that if only "official" range commands are acceptable after the "make ready" command, then why isn't there something in the rules to deal with this situation? It's obvious that it is a common place occurrence, from all the posters in here, saying what they do in this situation, but there is nothing in writing. We have rules for just about everything imaginable, but not this potentially deadly situation?

Some say leave the shooter "hot", some say ULSC. Is there any other time, when it is acceptable for someone to go down range when someone is on the line with a loaded gun?

It's covered by both the "Stop" command and safety warnings, which aren't limited to things like "muzzle" or "finger......"

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The gun is not inert if its loaded and in the holster. If a loaded gun, in a holster, is inert, then why does USPSA run cold ranges?

Downrange is not defined in the rulebook. Facing uprange is, but not downrange.

Like I asked, if only official commands are to be used after MR, then what do you say to the shooter?

What safety infraction are you warning him about? The shooter has done nothing wrong, therefore a warning is not in order...

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

USPSA runs cold ranges in part, so folks can utilize the safe table to work on a gun, to dryfire, etc. Race holsters and dropped guns outside the course of fire also play a role.....

Shooter's don't have to do something for a safety warning to be given. At one range in the section, some fishermen decided to climb a side berm -- from the other side, because they wanted to see who was shooting. I'm sure that prompted a "Stop" command, likely followed by "Point your muzzle over here, where I'm pointing" followed by "Unload and show clear."

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The point I was trying to make (I think anyway), was that if only "official" range commands are acceptable after the "make ready" command, then why isn't there something in the rules to deal with this situation? It's obvious that it is a common place occurrence, from all the posters in here, saying what they do in this situation, but there is nothing in writing. We have rules for just about everything imaginable, but not this potentially deadly situation?

Some say leave the shooter "hot", some say ULSC. Is there any other time, when it is acceptable for someone to go down range when someone is on the line with a loaded gun?

They're still within Make Ready. You are blocking them from assuming the start position, and you are free to give safety warnings as you see fit.

If the gun is in the holster, it's inert and you are standing with the shooter - they can Pierrot and it won't matter, right - so where is DOWNRANGE when the gun is inert?

Is that the guy that ran for President a few years ago? :devil:

Edited by Gary Stevens
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Maybe we also overthink things a little too much.

The gun is in the holster it's not going to go off by itself!

The face up range and hands on head are what I've seen, I've only been shooting the game for ~9 months.

It made sense the first time I saw it done, it makes sense now. If people can't handle having their hands on the head for a minute then maybe they aren't physically fit enough to partake in the game anyway.

The end game: Make sure the shooter is aware of what happened/is happening. Send someone downrange to fix the issue...shoot the stage.

It's not rocket surgery boys.

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