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Practical Shooting, Team Kimber, & USA Shooting


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The Dallas Observer, the local alternative paper, ran this article about an Olympic pistol shooter/coach who was jailed on weapons charges during a nasty divorce.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2004-...ws/feature.html

There is a section about the quotas...<snip>

Rapid-fire pistol has been an Olympic event since 1896. But this year no Americans will compete in it; their performances in qualifying competitions failed to earn any quota slots.

<snip>

There would seem to be a "which came first - chicken or egg" discussion about the quota. In theory, depending on the timing of when the "training weekend" occured, it's possible that there weren't any quota slots because the pre-existing team didn't qualify for them. Given their performance at Bianchi, I'd guess the ramp up time for TGO, Fowler, etc would be minimal for rapid fire. So the question becomes would USAS have gotten slots had they included action shooters in the qualifiers?

The problem more obviously seems to be that there is some shooting snobbery going on not too dissimilar to what goes on in the world of martial arts (my school of *%^-itsu has better lineage and is thus superior). Practical shooting seems to be the bastard step child of the shooting sports. Bullseye people think we can't hit the side of a barn. Shotgunners (with keg nearby) think it's unsafe. And we stand back saying, "It's all shooting hence all good! What is your mental dysfunction?" In Dallas, two practical clubs were closed because of other shooters - one a group of bullseye folk, the other a group of shot gunners.

Can't we all just get along and save our collective ire for those in the legislature? Looking down on other shooting sports accomplishes nothing for the collective cause.

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Carina, I agree. But we aren't the one's looking down our noses. I'm glad to see that someone from the "inside" has joined us, which gives me an opportunity to first get on a soapbox, and second, ask some questions.

The United States as the largest number of shooters, the largest number of active shooters, and based on our performance in the practical shooting world, some very dedicated ones. Warm bodies to fill the quota should not be a problem. And yet we had no one to go in the latest soiree. As a friend of mine has been known to ask "What's up with that?"

Is the process of making the team a public one? Is it a simple matter of beating the snot out of the competition in X, Y and Z qualifying events? If it is not, then are the minutes (or transcripts) of the meeting where the team was decided published? Who supplies guns, ammo and equipment? Who maintains it? Are these things known outside of the inner circle?

As I see it, we have a difference of approach that is a chasm: practical vs. heirarchy. Practical shooters will experiment within the rules (and even outside, just to see if somethign is an advantage) pay attention only to what wins, and take care of things ourselves. We are for the most part autodidacts of shooting. Oh yes, and we have to earn a living while doing it all. The Olympic program (I'd imagine most any program) is a hierachy: Unless you're Kim getting her own Perrazzis, you show promise as a kd, you get groomed, you get guns and ammo, and you turn them over to the "armorer" who maintains them.

If the accuracy report of the Rapid Action Project are to be believed, our Olympic shooters are using guns with accuracy no C class IPSC shooter would stand still for. Faced with such gear, the typical IPSC-shooter response would be to practice with the better one while getting the spare rebuilt. If an Olympic shooter hands a gun back to the armorer with the complaint "It doesn't shoot accurately" what is the response?

Unless the process of getting a spot on the team is an open process, no IPSC shooting is going to try. What GM could take six months out of their schedule to make the team, if their efforts were for naught due to the closed-door meeting that selected the team? (And when someone says "You couldn't make the team with only six months practice" my reply will be "Make it open, and stand back. We'll show you.") What GM would settle for a gun that didn't shoot better than he (or she) could?

We've got a pool of talent. We have plenty of ranges. We have no lack of guns, gunsmithing and ammo. We have an organization supposedly devoted to winning. So where's the beef?

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At the Rapid-Action meeting at the Olympic Center, my recollection is that the team selection was based upon performance. If I recall, the scores shot at the Nationals and the Pan American events determined the team members. The Nationals, at least, was an Open event allowing anyone to enter.

Now that they have a new pistol coach, this could change, I suppose.

Don Golembieski was gettign into this fairly heavily, so you might contact him of the Shooting USA office to get an update.

Guy

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I can only say that I've heard the selection process is a completely subjective one. One of our shooters could win @ the Pan Am earning a slot for the US and the powers that be (whoever that is) can then turn around and give that slot to someone else.

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Carina, I agree. But we aren't the one's looking down our noses.

My fault Patrick for not being clearer. My intention was to convey that WE are the ones being rebuffed. What could we know about shooting since all we do is spray and pray? <sarcasm mode off>

Your observation about heirchal versus practical was dead on. What method would yield the best results? The practical method may lead to more experimentation and hence mistakes but would ulitmately be perhaps the most successful. Of course only if you take advantage of learning from the mistakes - which brings up the next point and it can be applied to a person or an organization in almost any field or endeavor. Stagnation will never lead to success. Evolution is necessary and those that evolve almost always LEARN and change. They aren't particular who they learn from either. Even in an adversarial relationship, you learn about your weaknesses and hence the adversary has helped you. To assume that something can't be improved is to stagnate. For the sake of USAS, I hope that they choose evolution and not devolution.

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re: quotas from issf-shooting.org

how to qualify

Since 1988 the Participation in the Olympic Shooting events is not guaranteed. Each national shooting federation must earn "Quota Places”.

Quota Places are generally awarded when an athlete wins a gold medal at the ISSF World Cups or posts a top finish at the World Championships or Continental Championships - Africa, America, Asia, Europe, and Oceania - in the last two years before the Olympics.

One shooter can obtain only one quota place for his country (NOC) in any event for the Olympic Games. A quota places guarantees that someone from a given country - not necessarily the athlete who earned it - will be competing in that Olympic event. Each nation can earn a maximum of 31 quota places: one each in trap, skeet and double trap women, and two each in all other events.

For the host country of the 2004 Olympics, there are reserved 10 quota places for Greece in Trap and Skeet for Men and Women events; 50m Rifle 3 Position Men and 10m Air Rifle Women events; Running Target Men event; the 25m Rapid Fire Pistol, 10m Air Pistol Men and the 25m Pistol Women events.

The "Tripartite Invitation Places" (15) enable the Tripartite Commission to grant the right for participation to one shooter from a country (NOC) which has not obtained a quota place (starting position) for participation in the Olympic Games according to the new quota system, if it would be in the interest of the IOC/NOC/ISSF that at least one (1) shooter could represent this country in the shooting events of the Olympic Games. This decision is based on consideration of the overall size of the delegation of that country including entries in other sports. Applications for "Invitation Places" from NOCs (ISSF Member Federations) will be received by a tripartite commission, composed of the IOC, NOCs and ISSF, for high level athletes who have minimum qualification scores, but who belong to NOCs with no or only few quota places and which are entering few competitors in other sports. The final decision regarding the technical level of the athletes for the allocation of these "Invitation Places" will rest with the ISSF.

The Special "Universality Places" (19) for hardship cases are granted by the ISSF on request of the IOC, or a NOC, or a Member Federation of the ISSF to a country which has a shooter without a quota place, but who has obtained an outstanding result in one of the Olympic Shooting Events in an official qualification competition.

The total number of athletes who may compete in the sport of shooting is 390, compromising 243 men and 139 women.

The number of quota places for athletes per event (excluding the 15 Tripartite Invitation Places and 19 "Universality Places") is:

men

25m Rapid Fire Pistol

60 shots

17

There are other quota standards, but I just listed Rapid Fire since that seemed to be the question.

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So, a shooter from the US can earn a quota slot by placing well enough at one of the other matches. Are those matches open to any entrant? And who decides who goes in the earned slot?

Your guess is a good as mine. I read it 10 times and it still doesn't make any sence to me. Seems like a good idea which got lost in it's own rules......

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FWIW, the counterpart to this forum in the olympic shooting world can be found at:

www.targettalk.org.

There was some conversation on there about IPSC shooters crossing over for rapid fire. Some people were claiming that the IPSC shooters that tried out wanted money, and lost interest when they were told they wouldn't be paid to shoot on the US team.

Sounds like B.S. to me, but I don't have any personal knowledge.

In addition to IPSC, I'm also interested in 10m air pistol, and rapid fire pistol.

For rapid fire, the 8 and 6 second strings are an eternity for this B class shooter. The 4 second string can be a bit challenging though.

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For those interested, Jim Scoutten was kind enough to send me the following reminder about this week's ShootingUSA show topic:

Our profile of the US Shooting Team continues this week with the members of the Rifle and Pistol Team.

Thursday 10/7 9:00 PM Eastern - 6:00 PM Pacific

Thursday 10/7 10:00 PM Pacific (Friday 1:00 AM Eastern)

Sunday 10/10 9:30 AM Eastern - 6:30 AM Pacific

Monday 10/11 7:00 PM Eastern - 4:00 PM Pacific

Monday 10/11 11:30 PM Pacific - (Tuesday 2:30 AM Eastern)

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USAS is not rebuffing or looking down their noses at practical shooting, quite the contrary. They realize the top pistol shooters in the USA are currently shooting the practical games. There are a few practical shooters who could medal and even dominate the International pistol games if they were so inclined. The pool of shooters that shoot practical could make the US International Pistol Team a dominating force. USAS recognizes that.

USAS also recognizes that the practical shooters are "battle ready" due to the amount of top grade competitions available all over the country. This is one reason they started sending some of their athletes to the practical matches. A top grade competition produces top grade competitors. They need the experience practical matches provide.

I believe the most important reason USAS has started sending their athletes to practical matches is as simple as a gesture of support of other shooting disciplines. USAS has the foresight to see we should be a shooting community united, promoting shooting in all disciplines. United we stand, divided we fall, if you will.

The selection system

National Team: Team members are selected from two separate open competitions, (3) from the National Championship, and (1) from the Fall Selection Match in each of the Olympic events. There are (5) Olympic events, (3) men's, and (2) women's. There is also a procedure to add a shooter with the recommendation of the National Coach with approval by subcommittee. This is a safeguard for a top shooter who may have had a bad tournament. National Team Members receive support in the forms of ammo, travel and expenses for tournaments, in country and overseas.

National Development Team: Team members are selected at Open competitions also. Emphasis here on recognizing potential. Selections are made from National Championships, Junior Olympic National Championships, NCAA Rifle Championships ACUI Collegiate Shotgun Championships, NRA Collegiate Pistol Championships and from the Fall Selection Match, Coaches can add a limited number of shooters on an At- Large basis as well. This team is usually made up of younger shooters, is a larger number, and gets about the same support the National Team although they may travel overseas less. More discretion is given to the coaches and subcommittee to select this team as it is seen as a building team.

The shooters that participate in the World Cups and eventually the Quadrennial World Shoots (Championships of the Americas, Pan American, World Championships, Olympic Games) are selected from both the NT and NDT.

A short history. Shooting at one time was one of the most participated sport in the Olympic, both individually and by country numbers. But the scores shot by most participants were very sub-par. The International Olympic Committee (IOC) told the International Shooting Sports Federation (ISSF) to get their act together, cut the numbers, and reduce expenses. This produced Quota slots and Minimum Qualifying Scores (MQS).

Quota slots: The Olympic Games allows 2 shooters per event. Each country has to earn those slots. This is done when a shooter medals in a World Cup Competition. There are (4) World Cups each year plus the World Cup Finals (highest ranking World Cup medallists.) So Men's Pistol has to earn 2-country quota in each event, 10 quotas (6 men's and 4 women's). In addition, individuals must also shoot a MQS at a World Cup Event in order be eligible to be placed in the country's quota slot (confused yet.) These MQS scores are high, set so only the best shooters will be at the Olympics, and also to keep the numbers (and expenses) down. USAS also has a Performance Standard Score, which NT/NDT members must attain in order to be sent overseas to compete. These Performance Standard Scores are reasonable, but they are in the range of what must be fired to be competitive.

Simply stated, to make an Olympic Team, a shooter must:

1. Compete in the National Championships and/or a Team Selection Match

2. Be selected, by performance, to the National Team

3. Attain a Performance Standard Score

4. Compete in World Cup Competitions

5. Make sure the US has a quota slot

6. Shoot a MQS

7. Be one of the top two shooters during the Olympic Quadrennial tryouts,

Top (3) in non-Olympic years

A tough and time-consuming task, you have to be dedicated.

Enough for now. I hope I shed some light on this subject and did not confuse. If any of you have any questions about try-outs and team, I'd be more than happy to try to answer or find the answers for you. I know USAS welcomes and indeed invites all practical shooters to give the Olympic events a try.

Best Regards,

Carl Bernosky

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