Practical Shooting, Team Kimber, & USA Shooting

[EricW]

300 G's lost in space! You're kidding me...right?

[kimel]

FWIW...when I bought my Kimber last year there was a nice tri-fold, full color, brochure in the case. That is the first and only pistol I have ever purchased that had a USPSA brochure in the case. My Para didn't have one. None in the Ruger case either. Didn't see one in the Springfield TGO case (but it may have been hiding) that I looked at and almost brought home.

Yeah, it was probably a "we will cut the ad price for you if you will stuff these in the boxes" type of deal but that is a good step, IMHO.

At this point we need to be happy that anyone is supporting any shooting sports.

300 grand evaporating is small potatoes. That's one have-assed junket to some place warm for the top brass and their mistresses.

I like Scooter's idea. That would be interesting. And don't forget to add in 3-gun. I wanna see the trappers out there crawling through the rocks and weeds in their spiffy duds and an AR engaging targets at 300 to 500 yards. And the 3-gunners out there on the trap range with their beat up race shotguns. Oh yeah...culture clash baby!

[MBaneACP]

I'm totally bummed about the whole situation with USA Shooting. A lot of us spent mucho time down in the Springs trying to sort things out, forge links between the team and the industry, hustle up the money, etc. None of us ever even got a "thank you" from that rat's nest.

Here's a little example of their shining stewardship of the team...the Powers-That-Be in the Springs have expressed for YEARS their anger and bitterness [directly to me; this is not somthing I just heard] that Kim Rhode made her own deals for her guns and ammo rather than work through the Springs. To put this in perspective, the Springs was willing to "give" her the FULL ALLOCATION of shotgun shells (2500 rounds, roughly what Kimmy shoots in two days) and an okay shotgun. Kim struck her own deal for pallets of shotgun shells and a Perazzi or two. Hey, she is the FRANCHISE! She's got the medals; she's an incredible ambassador for the shooting sports; she's donated huge amounts of her time to juniors programs, etc. All I heard down in the Springs was how hard Kim was to deal with, blah blah blah. Yet she has NEVER refused a request from me on any program; has, in fact, volunteered when I DIDN'T call her. She even once postponed a DATE so she could teach the stuntwomen how to shoot trap. Yet they hate her so much in the Springs the previous marketing director [NOT Leaha Wirth, who's apparently on the way out] could be so rude she made Kim cry in public, for god's sake. The basis of that hatred is that the money Kim generates does not go through the Springs. Draw your own conclusions from that.

Rhino...yep, that's the coach that got BURKETT'ed at Rapid-Action. I am proud that I was there when Matt passed into Olympic shooting legend! His comments are probably the most honest words heard down there in years!

a disappointed and disillusioned mb

[rhino]

Great Googley Moogley! Anyone who could be mean to Kim Rhode should be horsewhipped!

You're right about her being the franchise. Sounds like the petty jealousy and envy is more important to them than making better shooters. There is no excuse at all for the USA not sweeping every medal in every shooting sport. None.

What a bunch o' knuckleheads.

Maybe their whole organization needs to be bypassed. Who decides which organization gets to select athletes for the Olympics, anyway?

[MBaneACP]

Yep...beating up on Kim is like bitch-slapping panda cubs.

mb

[EricW]

If lil' ol' Olympic Shooting is this nasty and corrupt, what does that tell you about the rest of it?

[rhino]

The amount of money involved obviously attracts unethical and immoral individuals. To wit I refer you to the scandals with the IOC in Salt Lake City a few years ago.

In the big ticket sports like track and field (in Europe anyway), the amount of money involved must be mind boggling.

Sounds like someone needs to set-off a bug bomb in the administrative and coaching facilities at the training centers in Colorado.

And, of course, Miss Kim Rhode should marry me. I would make it a primary goal in life to ensure she is treated with the proper level of respect.

[Nik Habicht]

And for anyone who missed it, here's the link to Buirkett's comments. You might have to scroll halfway down the page....

[BigDave]

It is obvious, to me, that those at the helm have no earnest desire for medals of any kind. Perhaps that is why Kim Rhodes fostered the deals she did?

If some sort of fleece was instigated, what is most disturbing to me is the thought that most of the money for shooting ,or any other olympic pursuit, is donated. That level of dishonesty is something I'm incapable of tolerating, much less understanding.

What the whole lot of them could use (and this goes for every non-profit organization not subject to taxation) is a yearly independent audit of financial records.

[EricW]

All I know is that if someday, I actually am somebody, have money, and the US Olympic team asks me for money, products, a box of kleenex, whatever..., the answer will involve two little letters.

Kim Rhode is well-sponsored, first and foremost, because the sponsors actually believe their money is being well-used.

[SRT Driver]

Unless I am mistaken, Kim won Gold again. I'm sure she would show Matt some hardware.

She's is doing it right and the "management" is filling their pockets with our good intentions.

Also, at the 2002 Bianchi Cup, Team USA was there and did horribly..but they still got their picture in some magazines. And Project Rapid Action produced no Olympians. HMMM..

Given the amount of coverage the networks give shooting, I'm not suprised. Not even a word except for the airgun shooter that missed gold to a cross fire.

[MBaneACP]

Project Rapid-Action produced no Olympians because the management of USA Shooting stepped in, insulted everyone involved and made it clear that NO ONE NOT IN THE OLD BOY GROUP would be representing the U.S. in anything.

The managent told Todd Jarrett and Mickey Fowler, who offered their services for free to do anything they could to help, that "you guys have nothing to offer us."

The management told me, "Those pistol shooters don't have the commitment it takes to be an Olympic shooter. They just run around and shoot and get in magazines."

And when Todd finished just out of the money in an Olympic qualifier after his POS Walter bit it, the management told me, "See? I told you they didn't have what it takes." The pistol coach, Erik Buyong, called me up after that and said, "You were right and I was wrong. Those guys are world class all the way." He was fired.

The management made it a point of telling everyone that even if Todd Jarrett finished first, he would NEVER be on a U.S. Olympic team. No matter what.

The management refused to follow up on a series of world class airgun scores shot by Bruce Gray--his FIRST time out! When Bruce used his own political connections to stop a California bill that would have outlawed Olympic guns in California, the management thanked him by calling him up and shouting, "Who the f^%$ do you think you are, messing in Olympic business?"

Don Golembieski offered his gunsmith services...refused by management.

And finally...

In Athens, the management told everyone who would listen that "American shooters didn't come to the Olympics to shoot; they just wanted a free trip to Europe."

mb

PS: There's worse stuff. The info's solid, but unfortunately, I can't prove it enough to go with it. The day I get enough proof, it's WELCOME TO THE FEDERAL SLAM time down in the Springs!

[Scooter]

It's not unusal for this type of corruption within the Olympics. USA Cycling went through a similiar scandal a few years ago. Lots of money was being poured in by EDS. This included a lot of really expensive equipment designated for the cycling team. Yet when they did an audit, much of the stuff couldn't be found. Eventually it was traced back the to head guy. Some how he was taking in 6 figure salaries and a lot of the bikes wound up in his garage. He did face jail time in the end.

Even with USA Cycling, there's still a lot of stupid decision being made. For one, they only want new and young riders to attend the Olympics. My boss won the Master's Track Nationals in the sprint event for his age class. He knew a few riders that were at Master's National that have posted faster times than many of the guys that went to the Olympics. They even beat those guys in other races and were clearly faster. But politics rule the Olympics. They rather have slow 20 year olds than fast 40 year olds.

Same thing with their coaching. Their coaches are always right. Recently Dr. Max Testa was invited to Colorado Springs. Dr. Testa used to be the team doctor for 7-11 Team, which became Motorola which Lance Armstrong was on. He than went to an Italian team which was the #1 team for a long time. Now he's working at UC Davis along with Eric Heiden. This guys has coached countless top cyclist and world champions. And he did a exactly what Matt Burkett did. He asked if their program was so good, where's all the champions. All they can say was they haven't developed to their full potential.

[MBaneACP]

I see the same thing in the Springs...there's an obsession with "we got 'em young and trained 'em right" as opposed to fielding the best team for the U.S. I think this is a leftover from the old Eastern Block (and current Cinese) style of training, which is something along the lines of indentured servitude.

They can't seem to grasp that American kids have not and are not buying into that type of program.

The mission statement of USA Shooting *should be* "The best of America competing against the best in the world;" not "The best we were able to round up who were willing to go along with a bucketload of stupid rules and a bureacracy that would do 14th Century France proud."

One of the points management has hammered again and again is that professional shooters *expect* things like travel funds, ammo, high quality sponsors the absolute best in coaching and support, and "we just can't do that!"

Why not? $300,000 from Kimber...more than $100,000 from NSSF...a total of more than $1,000,000 this year from the industry. After the best fund-raising year in recent history, all the coaching budgets were cut; no improvements were made to the facility in the Springs, although they are desperately needed; there was no new development on the guns used in the events (although, heaven knows, they need it, too!), gold medalist Matt Emmons rifle was vandalized immediately before the Olympics (which management blamed on "those pistol shooters"), public relations budgets were sliced...so, the inevitable question is, where did the money go?

The overall implication is that there's something wrong with world class shooters expecting support. I've been to management's houses, seen their new cars, etc. Call me crazy, but they don't appear to be being paid with kibble and bits.

Hmmmmmmmmm...is it possible that just about *anyone* on this list could run a world class shooting team with a mil a year? Hell, my *gray parrot* could run a world class shooting team for that kind of budget and probably have enough left over for spare walnuts.

I would not be at all surprised to see some serious legal charges come out of this.

mb

[gmshtr]

So disappointing.

As far as the Kimber issue, I talked with some reps at the 2003 and 2004 Shot Show. I introduced myself as the owner of Shooters Paradise a leading Kimber Master Dealer in the US, figuring this would generate more of a response than "Hi I'm Phil Strader, an IPSC shooter."

Once I grabbed the ear of someone who could make decisions, I talked with them about the prospect of putting a 40 top-end on a Kimber hi-cap, tuning the mags to work, and making a good entry level Limited/Limited 10 gun. [basically a Bul M5] I even offered to shoot it (I didn't mention "sponsorship"). My response was the same each year, "there's no market for a pistol like that."

I presented them with the comparison of Rob shooting a hi-cap Springfield 40 in Limited, which hardly anyone else uses or owns. But he still manages to stir up good business for SA. I should've seen this one coming: "Yeah, but he's Rob Leatham." OUCH

They're just not interested in that market, I guess. I know people would buy and shoot them, if they made them, anyway.

.02

Phil

[EricW]

"Yeah, but he's Rob Leatham."

Ding!!! Ding!!! Ding!!!

We have a winner in the "give Phil a new tagline" contest!

(Phil, if we ever shoot a match together, feel free to avenge yourself by loudly pointing out my score was 37% of yours.)

[Allgoodhits]

Phil,

To add to the market ignorance of some of the manufacturers out there, this was a reply I received from BERETTA USA a few years back inquiring about a 92 variant which was offereed in Europe at the time but not the USA.

" We get a lot a of calls on that gun, there is no demand for it".

Martin

[dirtypool40]

that is the same sort of reply I got from them when I was organizing / promoting the FL - SSC match a few years back.

Back to the original thread; I remember reading somewhere (Gungames?) where our top USPSA guys shot the course with the rapid fire guys and most of them posted scores that would have made the top 10 in the worlds. I think I remember hearing one of them (Fowler or LEatham) shot what would have been #5 his first time through.

Guys like Fowler, Koenig, Enos and the bunch that have dominated Bianchi would probably burn that match down if you let them practice.

[SRT Driver]

How about this. Next time the Olympic trials roll around, if their heart is in it, maybe some of those nasty IPSC shooters could show up and get a spot on the team.

After all, perfomance is what wins - all politics aside. If someone can put up a number, who needs the Olympic Training Center or USA Shooting.

FYI, Carl Bernosky was sporting a USA Shooting shirt at this year's Bianchi. Did he go to Athens?

[Carmoney]

No, Bernosky was at the Steel Challenge with Cody Maxwell and a few other Team USA guys whose names I don't recall. John Maxwell indicated to me that those guys didn't make the "first string" for Athens.

Carl's a very good shooter, though.

[gm iprod]

If Todd Jarrett and / or Mickey Fowler rolled up to my house offering their services the coffee would be on and the donuts on the way. DUMB DUMB DUMB.

I bet, if any of the top dogs from any of the non olympic shooting sports was to run a training course for the 'team' each one of them would find at least one thing that would help someone somehow. Anything that helps is a PLUS, telling them to F O is a MINUS, get a grip.

As far as no demand for a hicap 40, the biggest selling IPSC Std Class I sell is the Para Ltd 40, next the STI. Kimber can be difficult to deal with and the delays in getting guns (long or short) is dismaying. Springfirld are a dream to deal with by comparison.

But the numbers of higcap LTD / STD IPSC pistols pales into insignificance against Glock, Beretta, CZ etc etc 9mm entry guns.

[Flexmoney]

As far as no demand for a hicap 40...

I asked a similar question on Caspians about two years ago:

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24269

[usased]

I would like to respond to some of the questions, comments and criticisms regarding Kimber and particularly USA Shooting that have been made. As with most all issues, there is another side to a story, particularly when criticism is involved. Please consider that USA Shooting (USAS) has a responsible board of directors and is franchised by the US Olympic Committee as the national governing body (NGB) for Olympic shooting. There is much oversight and guidance from the USOC, the board and USAS Executive Committee that conferences monthly. If the situation were as portrayed in this forum, USAS would not be the shooting NGB, there certainly would have been changes and I would not be an employee.

USAS did have representation shooting the Kimber Team match pistol at Bianchi and the Steel Challenge this year. Our shooters have not made practical shooting a priority, as it is not their primary focus. We do shoot center-fire (non-jacketed) in the Olympic Shooting Center, which is permissible only under the direction of the national pistol coach. While our shooters have not been competitive for awards, we do hope they have represented USAS and Kimber well in addition to gaining high level competition experience. Kimber has honored USAS with royalties from the 1911 Team Match for $100k in 2003 and $150k in 2004. This has been a great relationship for both parties. Michael Bane and Gary Ramey were responsible for fostering that relationship and that has always been acknowledged.

There has been increased funding for athlete programs in total although this year’s pistol budget was reduced as only four of ten Olympic participation quotas were won. Funds were redirected to shotgun and rifle where all quotas were earned in an effort to maximize our Olympic medal potential which is our corporate mission. The pistol discipline will be funded in 2005 at a level to rebuild the program and implement grassroots programs in an effort to increase the shooter base as well as improve results at the world level.

Contrary to that stated we have a good working relationship with Kim Rhode. Yes, her agents have been challenging to work with at times but find a sports agent that does not present challenges. She is currently working with Winchester to support that sponsorship. We have shipped her more than 90 flats at 250 rounds each of shotshells so far this year in addition to providing all ammo, fees and travel expenses to USAS and ISSF competitions.

USAS general and administrative expenses have remained stable in spite of rising costs and are actually less than that in 1997 and 1998.

I take offense at accusations of dishonesty. The executive committee reviews detailed financials monthly. We have an independent audit annually and a detailed USOC audit bi-annually. All of our staff works hard to be financially efficient and responsible.

Statements made regarding the rapid-action pistol project are simply inaccurate and wording has been taken out of context. The participants were exposed to Olympic rapid-fire pistol over a weekend. It was obvious they were very talented and had proven themselves as champions. They only needed to make the commitment of time and money (pistols & ammo) to become competitive at the world level. A number of attendees made a devoted effort at rapid-fire including Don Golembieski who instructed our Team Kimber folks practical shooting. When we did not earn any Olympic rapid-fire quotas, understandably, most all abandoned the effort. We would very much like to see interest refueled since rapid-fire pistol rules will change January 1 to even better appeal to practical shooters. Pistols will change to a more common standard type .22 long rifle without porting and custom grips. It is the goal of ISSF to reduce malfunctions, lower cost and increase interest.

I have taken enough space and hopefully made my point of offering a different perspective of USAS and its management. I am pleased to respond to any questions readers may have. While I do not typically participate in internet forums on any regular basis, I can be contacted by e-mail or telephone directly at 719-866-4899.

[rhino]

Does anyone know what these "quotas" are? Is it financial? Numbers of athletes? What?

[Kimberkid]

Something that I have always wondered about it how this team was chosen. I dont intend to insult anyone anywhere. I recall seeing/talking to a couple members at the 03 Bianchi Cup, yea, some time ago i know. I hadnt, or still havent recognized anyone from that team as having won anything. It is possible I am just out of the loop and that is why I dont recognize them. The overall impression I got was that someone just grabbed their nephews and neighbor kids that could hit a lotta pop cans without using a scope and made them a team. I also got the impression that they picked the team and then found different games to shoot. isnt that a bit backwards? just curious about how it all came to be i guess, what was it that warranted the team members for selection?