rhino Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I've seen a lot of Kimber ads touting their sponsorship of USA Shooting and how some of the USA Shooting team members are shooting practical shooting matches with Kimber 1911s. What I've not seen or heard about is any of them actually shooting in any matches. Obviously they are currently busy with the Olympics, but in months past, have many (or any) of you seen these people at any matches? USPSA? IDPA? Steel Challenge? Bianchi Cup? Where? When? And if you've seen them, how are they doing in the competitions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I live in Colorado Springs, where the olympic training center is and USA shooting is located. I haven't seen any olympians shooting any of our IPSC matches. I've seen the Kimber ads for the special olympic edition 1911s or whatever, but I haven't heard anything about the olympians actually using them. The indoor range that they practice at doesn't allow anything higher than .22 to be shot in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I don't recall them at Bianchi this year, but I recall them last year. I think they were also at the Steel Challenge last year. At least some, though not, perhaps, all. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 17, 2004 Author Share Posted August 17, 2004 Do you recall how they performed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I always figured it was kinda slimy of Kimber, knowing that our entry level folks often opt for a "factory custom" like a Kimber package gun and Kimber does well.......didly squat for USPSA other than buy false advertising space. PLEASE someone correct me and say Kimber has sponsored a match or shooter in their area. I hope I am wrong about all this. I shot the FGN match last year, and a guy on our squad had one of those Kimber USA guns, he never even got through one single stage without a jam. One of the guys went to the truck and got him an old single stack to finish the match with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 As I recall, they were in the upper half. Not too bad for their first time. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 special olympic edition 1911s BAHAHAHAHA!!! 'Cause THAT is how Kimber wants to be known for its firearms.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 A bunch of Team USA was at the Steel Challenge last year. They did pretty good for shooting something wildly different from what they usually do. IIRC, it was with Kimber single-stack 1911's. The cool part was they had an Olympic Rapid Fire range set up on one of the side berms. Show up, and shoot the COF for free with one of their super-high-zoot .22's and their ammo. There were a considerable number of AD's into the dirt from the SC shooters-- the Olympic folks measure trigger pull in fractions of ounces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 A little off-topic, but I had a request from somebody yesterday who wants to get into Olympic-style rifle shooting (in the Texas area). Anybody got contact info I can point this guy to? thanks, Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 719-866-4670 is the # for USA shooting, their website is www.usashooting.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 USA Shooting is presently imploding, so I'd steer clear until the bodies finish falling. I love the athletes, but the "executives" at the top...well, let's just wait and see. Several members of the team were at the Steel Challenge this year. I don't know how they did, to tell the truth. No offense, but am puzzled at why Kimber should do anything for USPSA. What on earth has USPSA done for Kimber? mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 28, 2004 Author Share Posted August 28, 2004 No offense, but am puzzled at why Kimber should do anything for USPSA. What on earth has USPSA done for Kimber? I can't speak for the fearless leaders, but the membership of USPSA collectively has purchased many hundreds of their guns, advocate their purchase to others, and would probably do so more vigorously if we had some kind of "relationship." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 What on earth has USPSA done for Kimber? Probably given 'em a price break on all the back covers they've bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 yeah, they have been graced with the free publicity campeign same as glock. The gun rag reading public may not know much, but they know if you're cool then you ONLY buy GLock or Kimber. A lot of our newbies buy their guns and a lot of us carry them on a daily basis, but Springfield makes at least as good a product (for about $100 less) and is deep into sponsorship of our sport. Kimber has done some great things, but supporting shooters ain't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 You know, this is a tough issue and one that goes to the heart of the issue of shooting sports sponsorship. I've had this discussion at various times with a lot of the gunmakers, and occasionally with the heads of the sports. In fact, USPSA is too small to be statistically significant in terms of handgun sales for the big players. That's why the sport is domimated by the smaller players who can build guns specifically tailored to the rules. There are not that many new people coming into USPSA anymore, and even if the new person comes in with a Kimber, that person will be "directed" through peer pressure or observation to the "glamor" divisions of Limited and Open, where specialty guns are the norm. It's a great situation for the smaller players...classic word of mouth marketing. Not so great for a company like Kimber, or Sig, or S&W, or Ruger. One way around this is to snag a top shooter who can be leveraged, and there's just not that many of them. TGO is taken; so is Todd. Glock got lucky with Sevigny. There are problems with this apporach...you don't just need a top shooter; you need a top shooter who is smart, quick on his or her feet in front of a camera, charismatic, able to instruct and do R&D for the company AND able to break through the Robbie/Todd/Dave stranglehold on what little media there is (including me). That means this shooter and his or her company would have to give me a compelling reason to feature him or her rather than Rob or Todd or Dave--who are all world class presenters, instructors and, for lack of a better word, personalities. That's tough. In the Back When, we marketed USPSA as a way of reaching the "taste-makers," the people who defined what the larger market of shooters would want next year and as a test bed for finding out what works. That's no longer true. USPSA is essentially the same as PPC, a sport that appeals to a narrow group of shooters and focuses on very specific equipment (in its "glamor" divisions). It's no longer a proving ground, because the rules of the sport are rigidly controlled to protect the "installed base." Yes, those statements are not necessarily true in L-10 and Production, but assuming the sport continues to contract--even at a very slow rate--the multi-divisional format is increasingly squeezed, with the marginalization of the newer divisions. One Nationals, for example. Who will people focus on...the person who wins HOA or the winner of a Division who finiished 20th overall? yes, all teh Divisions are scored separately, but most people have understood basic numbers since before the first grade. IDPA has tried since its inception to convince people that there's no such thing as HOA...how many times have you read that Sevigny won HOA at the IDPA Nationals? He did, by the way. Will this change when the Ban sunsets? Who knows? The assumption in the industry is that regardless of who's elected, a new Ban will probably be put in place within the next year. A Bush landslide could change that, but I don't know anybody who expects a Bush landslide (although maybe if we all keep praying!). I've got no solutions here...I'm now an OFFICAL NONCOMBATANT on all things USPSA. I do believe, however, that there are discussions that need to happen for the good of USPSA and for the good of the shooting sports as a whole. There are times when I think this forum is the only place such discussions will find a home... mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 Well said Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 In fact, USPSA is too small to be statistically significant in terms of handgun sales for the big players. That's why the sport is domimated by the smaller players who can build guns specifically tailored to the rules. There are not that many new people coming into USPSA anymore, and even if the new person comes in with a Kimber, that person will be "directed" through peer pressure or observation to the "glamor" divisions of Limited and Open, where specialty guns are the norm. It's a great situation for the smaller players...classic word of mouth marketing. Not so great for a company like Kimber, or Sig, or S&W, or Ruger..... In the Back When, we marketed USPSA as a way of reaching the "taste-makers," the people who defined what the larger market of shooters would want next year and as a test bed for finding out what works. That's no longer true. USPSA is essentially the same as PPC, a sport that appeals to a narrow group of shooters and focuses on very specific equipment (in its "glamor" divisions). Interesting.. I know nothing of the dynamics of the gun market. Is the bulk of new-gun sales to people that own 0-2 guns, or 5+? Looking at some of the "what's in your safe?" pictures, it would seem that there's a lot of non-specialized gear in those safes. Sure Wakal shoots a 9x23 custom-blaster in Open, but it looks like he's buying a lot that isn't. Competition shooters have a good idea of what quality is and what works, but I guess theres not enough of them buying for themselves and they're also not driving the general gun-buying public as a whole. Check out how often competition shooters refuse to visit public ranges anymore.. You'd think that somebody could leverage the 'glamour' of competition and get some mileage that way, kinda like Springfield has been doing with TGO .. <cue the ad-man> "Top IPSC shooters require ultimate accuracy, speed and reliability... what do they carry when they're not competing??" or <big match group shot> "They shot seven million rounds in practice last year. With Winchester primers". (oops, reloading is probably another small niche) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 I'm really not seeing Limited-10 and Production being "marginalized" at the club level where I live. They continue to be the most popular divisions at almost every match (by far), and for the most part it's repeat customers, not just newbies. I've been playing this game for ten years and I choose to play in Limited-10 and with a Kimber. I see a lot more Kimbers and Glocks at matches than I do all of the Limited and Open race guns combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I think what MB's saying is that while USPSA may not be marginalizing the other divisions internally, if an outsider looks in and asks "who won?", they'll be pointed at HOA Open or Limited nine times out of ten, rather than Top Senior or Top Limited-10 or whatever. Without separate matches for each division, it's very hard to avoid this. Of course that begs the question "Why isn't the Single-Stack Classic the end-all be-all of matches?", given as about everybody and their dog has a horse in the 1911 race nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 I re-read today an article or editorial about Kimber and the US Olympic Shooting, in the past two years Kimber has donated $200,000 to the US Shooting Team, who at the time the article was written the team was all over the world preparing for the Athens games. If any of the preparation that the New Zealand shooters go through is anything to go, they were probably advised not to shoot the Bianchi Cup or anything else for that matter that close to the Olympics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 It's true that the actual team members wouldn't be allowed to shoot another sport close to the Games. The USA Shooting pistol coach has been sent packing...other resignations seem to be in the ofting...sponsors are starting to ask where the money went--a HELL of a good question, BTW. As the person who arranged the Kimber deal (now up to $300K), I'D like to know where the money went, because it sure as heck didn't go to the shooters! USA Shooting couldn't even afford to pay the entry fee for the resident athletes for the national championships in pistol this year (according to what I've been told). The best pistol shooter in Colorado Springs appears to have quit the program. Morale is in the toilet. The only question seems to be whether the USA Shooting board of directors is going to suck it up and make the necessary changes or let the program continue to come apart at the seams. My little moles in the Springs tell me that there's some enthusiasm for scrapping the whole pistol program to "save money." For what? From my standpoint, if the pistol program gets thrown overboard, I can't imagine why ANYONE in this industry would give those weasels one single penny. Isn't there some old samauri saying to the effect of, "the person who does the work of my enemy becomes my enemy"? If there isn't, there should be. mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Thats a Damn Shame, This Country should have the premier shooting team in the world. And it pisses me off that a bunch of weasels at USA Shooting are lineing there pockets with the money that should be going to the shooters.I try to send a couple of small donations to USA Shooting every year,I hate to stop sending them but i think i will until they get there s@#* togather. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 The USA Shooting pistol coach has been sent packing... Is that the same guy Matt Burkett zinged with his Burkett-sim when you took the IPSC shooters to play with them? other resignations seem to be in the ofting...sponsors are starting to ask where the money went--a HELL of a good question, BTW. As the person who arranged the Kimber deal (now up to $300K), I'D like to know where the money went, because it sure as heck didn't go to the shooters! Oh, man! From my outsider's point of view, the programs seems to be in enough trouble already without that kind of thing too. Oy! Is there any shooting of the Olympic-style pistol events outside of Colorado? Where do they even get "recruits" for the program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 What US needs (IMO) is to import a Bella Karoli-type ex-USSSRish coach or coaches. That whole defection thing doesn't seem to be the hurdle it once was. Doesn't the AMU have a contingent of olympic type shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Hey Michael, how's this for a new show idea. Head to head showdown, the top IPSC shooters vs. the US Olympic team. Have everyone shoot all the Olympic disciplines, rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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