Is there a point when competition becomes irrelevant

[CHA-LEE]

I am a relatively new to USPSA shooting, only doing it since 2008. I went from U - GM in 2 years. Was this done competing against other shooters in competition? No. It was done by competing against the challenge at hand. I am my best and worst critic. I know when I have executed something solidly or screwed it up. The main difference I see between myself and other shooters is that I dig into both scenarios and look for a way to improve it. In my mind there is no such thing as "Good Enough", anything and everything can be done better, faster, or more efficiently.

My previous hobby was racing RC cars. I gained a HUGE amount of competition experience (18 years and 4 National Titles worth) while doing it. While reading this thread the one thing that comes to mind is something that a good friend and fellow competitor said to me one day at a major race. He was watching my practice runs and seen that I was frustrated because I was not able to keep up with the top drivers. He simply said "Stop racing against the other racers on the track, instead race against the track, the track is your true competitor". I am stupid so I blew the comment off for that race and ended up with a marginal result for that major race. But on the long drive home I really started thinking about the comment and made the conscious decision to apply that competition methodology (Race against the Track) to my next 10 races to see if it made a difference or not. Much to my surprise my lap times started to drop dramatically and the rest of the cars on the track seemed to melt away. I changed my focus from being other racer focused (Look you are going faster than Joe Blow. Or Joe Blow is blowing your doors off) to optimizing my strategy of negotiating the track as fast and as efficient as possible (How can I enter this corner sooner or faster. Where can I get on the throttle sooner). This new competition mindset also helped in eliminating the big race nerves. You are not racing against Joe Blow who is a 10 time world champion, but instead the track where you have worked hard to find all of its secrets in producing the best lap time possible. In the "Race the Track" scenario there is no pressure, you only have to execute what you KNOW you can do.

I clearly remember winning my last National Title. I won the race by a significant amount, destroying the competition. Yet I knew I had performed flaws in my race and was personally disappointed in my performance. I knew I could have performed better and since I didn't I was disappointed. Oh, I won the nationals? No I didn't, the Track just won the Nationals because I lost the race against the track.

To put this into perspective to USPSA Shooting, when I compete in a match I am not shooting against other shooters. I am shooting against the stage. I may win the match when compared to the other shooters, yet lose against every stage in the match. I treat every stage the same no matter what level of match I am competing in. Its me against the stage. My job is to find all of the stages secrets, define a plan of attack, dry fire and program the stage to the best of my ability before shooting it, then execute my stage plan as programed. I would much rather win my battle against the stage and lose the match, verses let a stage beat me and win the match.

Which am I? The Artist or the Competitor?

To answer the thread question "Is there a point when competition becomes irrelevant", I think the answer is yes. When you quit competing all together then it does not matter if there is competition or not. Otherwise there will always be something or someone to compete against. Its up to you to decide on competing against others, or competing against the task at hand.

Edited November 23, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[t0066jh]

I think competition is very relevant for most. Placing, titles, prizes, classification, bragging rights among your peers, etc. can all serve as the basis for outcome-based goals. Outcome-based goals provide the motivation to improve your skills, physical fitness, equipment and the mental aspect of performance. The down side is that outcome-based goals are a distraction during actual performance. So,the ability to set aside the desired outcomes and shift to a process-based mindset during the actual performance is crucial. For optimal performance, both the desired outcome and the process have to have their place.

This one "nails it" for me. The desire to win brings about the discipine to apply the process mindset.

Edited November 23, 2012 by t0066jh

[varminter22]

Imagine how much more interesting a major match would be if the super squads were broken up, top shooters scattered into different squads with lower classed shooters, not knowing/seeing how the others are doing....

I really like that idea. Is there any real downside?

[CHA-LEE]

Imagine how much more interesting a major match would be if the super squads were broken up, top shooters scattered into different squads with lower classed shooters, not knowing/seeing how the others are doing....

I really like that idea. Is there any real downside?

There is a down side. At the very top level of shooting a small difference in weather from one day to the next can make a huge difference in individual performance. A good example is this past single stack nationals. The winner, Nils shot the match in nice dry weather, the "Super Squad" ended up shooting the match in cold rainy weather. That is not a fair shooting challenge when you compare the two shooting opportunities.

Secondly its easier for match media to observe, photograph and film the top shooters when they are all on the same squad. Can you imagine trying to compile a "Blow by Blow" commentary of the competition between the top shooters if you have to ping pong all over the range trying to keep up with the shooting events of each shooter?

[JimM]

I have thought about it a lot, and i have come to the following conclusion: When I feel (believe) that I am adequately trained, I am invincible. When otherwise, I have doubt.

Doubt sucks, so now I must do the work.

And by the way, I'm always more interested (worried) about results when I know I'm not adequately trained...

SA

That sums it up for me...on the other hand, it's hard to expect much if one doesn't know any better.

60+ here...found USPSA by going to my club for another reason and ended up watching a match a couple of years ago. I'm glad I decided to give it a shot, literally. Since then it's been a constant learning process.

Jim

[Steve RA]

So it's good for the GMs to all shoot together, so the weather would be the same. What about all the other classifications ??? It would seem that what is fair for one group should be fair for all.

[toothguy]

Well, I have talked to a number of champions and they don't always say publicly what they are feeling inside. When i was at the peak of my shooting, I could zero a stage and still win a club match. I never said it aloud, but I knew it to be true.

I have thought about it a lot, and i have come to the following conclusion: When I feel (believe) that I am adequately trained, I am invincible. When otherwise, I have doubt.

Doubt sucks, so now I must do the work.

And by the way, I'm always more interested (worried) about results when I know I'm not adequately trained...

SA

Steve, I think there is a big difference in the way the the games are set up. In Bianchi no one is invincible one small mistake and it can really hurt your score. The world championship was one by a shooter adequately trained to shoot a perfect score but did not. I think most Bianchi shooters are shooting against the course and trying their best to not focus on results.

"The truly great shooters pay little or no attention at all to their competition, or anything else for that matter. For them, the contest takes place inside their head. The real struggle is to get in the zone. When they find it, the rest just seems to happen. It's as if the world around them melts, the distractions disappear and the universe is reduced to the few simple elements of eyes, hands, gun and target."

- Gabby Hulgan (1996 NSSA World Skeet Champion)

Edited November 26, 2012 by toothguy

[CHA-LEE]

So it's good for the GMs to all shoot together, so the weather would be the same. What about all the other classifications ??? It would seem that what is fair for one group should be fair for all.

Really? The whole point in keeping the Super Squad together is to make the shooting challenge as equal as possible for the shooters who are most probable of Winning the whole match.

When lower classification shooters start to be true contenders in winning the match then we can worry about them shooting the whole match on the same schedule as the super squad.

[wes777]

So it's good for the GMs to all shoot together, so the weather would be the same. What about all the other classifications ??? It would seem that what is fair for one group should be fair for all.

Really? The whole point in keeping the Super Squad together is to make the shooting challenge as equal as possible for the shooters who are most probable of Winning the whole match.

When lower classification shooters start to be true contenders in winning the match then we can worry about them shooting the whole match on the same schedule as the super squad.

FWIW, if I was good enough to go to nationals, my expectations would be greater. I am not poor, but I do spend every cent I can talk my wife out of on shooting. At this point it is the reason I go to work (that and I signed that little line).

If:

I got the club nod for nats

paid the fee

found a way to get there (hitch hiking probably)

got a place to stay (cardboard box would do)

I kinda expect to be able to shoot on the same squad as some of the greats. I would even sign something saying that I wont talk, just paste and shoot.

Here is my reasoning. USPSA is a club sport, yet I have no opportunity to see the best in action, let alone shoot the crap with them. The customer base is not large enough to support full pro teams (thats how c,b, and a shooters get sponsored), which means that the top .5% desperately need the rest of us to contribute our $$$..... there are no 30 million viewers sitting at home, waiting to watch the weekly USPSA state and area shoot, leading to the National title Event. So If i dish out for nats, I kinda want to do more than shoot with the rest of the guys who sacrificed god know what to be there. I want to see what they do, when they do it, and be able to absorb something besides this: We showed up and paid allot of money to be here so that the top 15 guys could squad up and take this thing home.

And my second, and only real, point. Why would the super squad guys be allowed to shoot with each other, and see how the others are doing things? These guys are THE BEST. Isnt part of being the best taking a blank slate (stage) and showing everyone else what world class means? Say TGO goes first on a stage and does something no one else thought of, then everyone else uses his course breakdown. So Dave S. uses TGO's method and beats him on that stage. Does that mean that Dave S. is better than TGO on stage X? I would say no.

I think it would be better all around if the Super Squad dudes were split up and placed in every squad..... and then were the first shooter on every stage they went to. The competition would be more intense, not knowing how another top shooter ran a particular stage. We mortals would be able to see the Super GMs put all their stuff on the line every stage, and get the opportunity to see what the differences are ie learn something.

It is what it is, the system is not perfect. I love USPSA, and racing guns in general, super squads are not going to change that.

I apologize for thread drifting.

BACK ON THREAD:

I shoot to compete, I feel that competition is what I learn from. If I was an artist, I would shoot NRA action pistol or bullseye.

The thrill of competition is what gets me out of the rack to drive way the heck out there to shoot a match.

[Sac Law Man]

Shoot well or Win? It would depend on what my goal was! No matter what, my goal is to shoot the best I can, everything else after that doesnt matter.

[Chris iliff]

Artist with a "killer instinct" = champion

There are no "just artist" or "just competitors/winners"

You can't get to one without the other to some degree.

It is entirely possible that the subject doesn't recognize their own duality. Never even stopping to contemplate one or the other, artist or competitor/winner. Or, even denying that one or the other exist.

But, the Warrior Poet, truly holds history hostage.

In 200 years, Ali will still be celebrated=Warrior Poet.

Cultivating both stamps history.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Chris iliff

[toothguy]

Artist with a "killer instinct" = champion

There are no "just artist" or "just competitors/winners"

You can't get to one without the other to some degree.

It is entirely possible that the subject doesn't recognize their own duality. Never even stopping to contemplate one or the other, artist or competitor/winner. Or, even denying that one or the other exist.

But, the Warrior Poet, truly holds history hostage.

In 200 years, Ali will still be celebrated=Warrior Poet.

Cultivating both stamps history.

[Chris iliff]

Miyamoto Musashi?

One example I thought of as I wrote the above. I used Ali because he is one warrior poet we should all know.

I find the the original question to this thread interesting. I also find it interesting that we (forum) narrowed it down to 2 types of personalities. It just is not that simple. Eventhough we try to define it that way.

My point was, only those that cultivate both aspects, the art and the competition, will be remembered long term. Some will do it knowingly and some will do it not knowing.

[toothguy]

Warrior Monk, the terms seem to oppose each other. But through their peaceful respect of natures forms they became tenacious fighters.

[BulletWhisperer]

I feel that I am both the artist and the champion. To be honest when I am the champion I never lose. And when I am the artist I never lose . The Champion loves to go home bragging of his wins to his family(my family don't give a rats ass about my shooting, And that's why I pretty much do it). The artist is a very humble person outside his home(Especially at the range), he is the first guy at the range and the last one to leave and always building and tearing down stages,RO'ing , and teaching .

Locally I compete against open guns with my production gear . And even that gets boring. Helping and teaching other shooters is what I do nowadays , Their progression makes me feel like both Champion and Artist.

[MattYvip]

I'll have more to say on this later, but let me throw this out there:

Would you rather shoot well or win?

I'd rather shoot well and get beat than shoot like crap and win (not that I have to worry about winning even shooting well for me).

[benos]

On the vein this thread has turned down... I once shot an area match - one of the better matches I ever shot - and lost to TGO by ten points. Robbie shot an error free match. I had one miss, but other than that I felt I shot error free as well. After the match he confided that he was surprised I finished as close to him as I did, as he shot about as good as he was able to. Although I finished second, I couldn't have felt better about what I set out to do.

be

[Supermoto]

Matches are about winning, Practice is about becoming a better shooter

[toothguy]

Matches are about winning, Practice is about becoming a better shooter

Matches reveal how well you have practiced relative to other shooters. You have no control over who wins, unless that becomes your focus, in which case it won't be you.

[Supermoto]

If you're not there to win, then you won't.

Different personalities need different ways to succeed.

[toothguy]

On the vein this thread has turned down... I once shot an area match - one of the better matches I ever shot - and lost to TGO by ten points. Robbie shot an error free match. I had one miss, but other than that I felt I shot error free as well. After the match he confided that he was surprised I finished as close to him as I did, as he shot about as good as he was able to. Although I finished second, I couldn't have felt better about what I set out to do.

be

Someone asked me once how much I made from shooting and without knowing it I laughed. It costs a fortune to practice, travel, pay for ammo ect. If I know I am progressing and have done my best it makes me want to keep coming back. If my practice efforts paid off It was worth the price. The better you get the slower the advancement. I try not to waste mental effort comparing myself to other shooters but I do watch to try to learn anything I can.

[Supermoto]

I try not to waste mental effort comparing myself to other shooters but I do watch to try to learn anything I can.

so you don't look at the scores from the match?

[toothguy]

If you're not there to win, then you won't.

Different personalities need different ways to succeed.

Being there, all there is a huge part of it. The motivation to practice comes from the desire to win. Match day being there to execute to my potential or what I believe it to be at that point is all anyone can do. For myself competition is relevant for practice motivation but during the match executing my shot plan is all I want to concentrate on.

[toothguy]

I try not to waste mental effort comparing myself to other shooters but I do watch to try to learn anything I can.

so you don't look at the scores from the match?

No. during local Bianchi matches I have a good idea about how I'm doing but I wait till the end to tally the score.

Edited December 6, 2012 by toothguy

[atomicbrh]

CHA-LEE's analogy to RC racing hits the mark. Unlike "door handle to door handle" racing, personal match performance and match outcome are not related. Unlike football or boxing you are not physically beating or pushing back the opponent. I raced karts from October 1982 until April of 1995 culminating in a World Karting Association Championship in 1994 building my own engines and without anyone working on my equipment but me. You should race the track but someone can knock you out of any race in just a split second. Even if you are the fastest. Shooting matches is great compared to racing and a whole lot safer.