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Is there a point when competition becomes irrelevant


Aglifter

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I've shot USPSA for 18 years, and in all that time I've only won (HOA) a single USPSA match, and that was an undersubscribed club match. I have laboriously inched my ancient, aching sorry behind into A class in a couple divisions, but usually shoot at a B level. If I were in this for the competition, I would have quit in the first year. I still do it for many reasons, some put out above. One of them is striving for, and seeing, improvement, which, at my age and commitment level, comes slowly.

The other day, I managed a clean master level run on Bang and Clang in just under 3 seconds. A GM who has been a top sixteen Nationals finisher in my division crushed it right afterwards with a clean run in 2.5 seconds. At a local match this weekend I threw a D and C on a field stage but moved through it clean and precise. I only finished 7th out of 60 odd shooters on that stage.

I was and still am very happy with my performance both times, because they were both good runs for me, showing me what I am capable of. I am also not content with the runs, seeing how a cleaner draw would have helped in the first, and refinement of the sight picture would have gained me more points than the sloppy fast shots on the second.

So it's not the competition for me, though I feel it is necessary to have to get the benchmark runs for comparison. A bit of the artist is there, so is the hang with my buds social shooter and the lets have fun shooter, and the grizzled vet getting the newbies off on the right foot shooter.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be where I could beat the pants off of the GM's posting on this thread, and I still like that occasionally I finish on top of my division, though I have to realize that it only happens when the big guns are off doing something else. Since that isn't likely to happen I will find other equally worthy goals in my shooting.

A perspective from the middle of the pack

Kevin

Edited by kevin c
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I've shot USPSA for 18 years, and in all that time I've only won (HOA) a single USPSA match, and that was an undersubscribed club match. I have laboriously inched my ancient sorry behind into A class in a couple divisions, but usually shoot at a B level. If I were in this for the competition, I would have quit in the first year. I still do it for many reasons, some put out above. One of them is striving for, and seeing, improvement, which, at my age and commitment level, comes slowly.

The other day, I managed a clean master level run on Bang and Clang in just under 3 seconds. A GM who has been a top sixteen Nationals finisher in my division crushed it right afterwards with a clean run in 2.5 seconds. At a local match this weekend I threw a D and C on a field stage but moved through it clean and precise. I only finished 7th out of 60 odd shooters on that stage.

I was and still am very happy with my performance both times, because they were both good runs for me, showing me what I am capable of. I am also not content with the runs, seeing how a cleaner draw would have helped in the first, and refinement of the sight picture would have gained me more points than the sloppy fast shots on the second.

So it's not the competition for me, though I feel it is necessary to have to get the benchmark runs for comparison. A bit of the artist is there, so is the hang with my buds social shooter and the lets have fun shooter, and the grizzled vet getting the newbies off on the right foot shooter.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be where I could beat the pants off of the GM's posting on this thread, and I still like that occasionally I finish on top of my division, though I have to realize that it only happens with the big guns are off doing something else. Since that isn't likely to happen I will find other equally worthy goals in my shooting.

A perspective from the middle of the pack

Kevin

perfect

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I've shot USPSA for 18 years, and in all that time I've only won (HOA) a single USPSA match, and that was an undersubscribed club match. I have laboriously inched my ancient sorry behind into A class in a couple divisions, but usually shoot at a B level. If I were in this for the competition, I would have quit in the first year. I still do it for many reasons, some put out above. One of them is striving for, and seeing, improvement, which, at my age and commitment level, comes slowly.

The other day, I managed a clean master level run on Bang and Clang in just under 3 seconds. A GM who has been a top sixteen Nationals finisher in my division crushed it right afterwards with a clean run in 2.5 seconds. At a local match this weekend I threw a D and C on a field stage but moved through it clean and precise. I only finished 7th out of 60 odd shooters on that stage.

I was and still am very happy with my performance both times, because they were both good runs for me, showing me what I am capable of. I am also not content with the runs, seeing how a cleaner draw would have helped in the first, and refinement of the sight picture would have gained me more points than the sloppy fast shots on the second.

So it's not the competition for me, though I feel it is necessary to have to get the benchmark runs for comparison. A bit of the artist is there, so is the hang with my buds social shooter and the lets have fun shooter, and the grizzled vet getting the newbies off on the right foot shooter.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be where I could beat the pants off of the GM's posting on this thread, and I still like that occasionally I finish on top of my division, though I have to realize that it only happens with the big guns are off doing something else. Since that isn't likely to happen I will find other equally worthy goals in my shooting.

A perspective from the middle of the pack

Kevin

+1. I've won some High Senior Production at Area and Section matches over the years and enjoy those, but never went out with the intent to win that. Always planned to shoot my best and see what happens. I don't look at match rosters to see what class anyone else is who is shooting or who else is Senior,so I never really know who the other competitors are other than those people I happen to know. I don't care how good or bad they shot a stage or where they are in the standings. I go out to be the best I can be at any given time. Sometimes I am at the top of my game (which is still in the middle of the major packs) and sometimes I am not. Regardless, my goal is always to shoot the best I can, to improve as much as I can from where I was and keep on slogging away. My competition is me, and me alone, so it is always relevant.

Edited by vluc
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I hope you guys that say you are old ARE old! I'm 49 and I'm not old in my eyes. cheers.gif

On a serious note- there is something to be said about having young eyes and body but for the most part- this is a great sport in that "older" people can often compete at very high levels. You don't see that often in hockey, football, tennis, etc.

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I hope you guys that say you are old ARE old! I'm 49 and I'm not old in my eyes. cheers.gif

On a serious note- there is something to be said about having young eyes and body but for the most part- this is a great sport in that "older" people can often compete at very high levels. You don't see that often in hockey, football, tennis, etc.

Thank God for red dot sights.

Edited by toothguy
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If you guys have Netflix, stream/rent 'Jiro dreams of sushi'

Cliff notes: ~90 year old sushi chef that runs the best sushi bar in Japan. He still strives to improve his sushi even though he received the Michelin 3 star rating. Excellent documentary and it seems on point with this discussion.

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I hope you guys that say you are old ARE old! I'm 49 and I'm not old in my eyes. cheers.gif

On a serious note- there is something to be said about having young eyes and body but for the most part- this is a great sport in that "older" people can often compete at very high levels. You don't see that often in hockey, football, tennis, etc.

58 in a couple months, and I am not old.

Edited by vluc
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Just turned 66. I have neuropathy of the hands and feet, failing eyes, bum knees and a waistline bigger than my inseam. I shot a Level II match w/ revolver not long ago. Got points as good as the kids but lap times were twice anybody else. Finally dawned on me the latest / best equipment can't make up for age. Don't get me wrong. I can still beat the occasional 12 year old and the certified criminally insane but now I know I don't have to run fast to get a double alpha. I can still count my score as 1 or 2 down. I just need an egg timer.

Now I shoot because I love guns. My eternal thanks to our military for keeping it so we can. :cheers:

MOLON LABE

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I hope you guys that say you are old ARE old! I'm 49 and I'm not old in my eyes. cheers.gif

On a serious note- there is something to be said about having young eyes and body but for the most part- this is a great sport in that "older" people can often compete at very high levels. You don't see that often in hockey, football, tennis, etc.

56 very soon.

I've seen enough matches to see different ways (styles?) of top performance.

I've seen raw power, blinding speed, and cat like quickness all produce top performance. Youth has all of such in abundance.

But I still remember one shooter from years ago, Angelo Spagnoli. I can't describe his runs in any terms other than elegantly precise, even graceful.

That is something that can come with experience, and be maintained even when the other attributes start to fade.

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I hope you guys that say you are old ARE old! I'm 49 and I'm not old in my eyes. cheers.gif

On a serious note- there is something to be said about having young eyes and body but for the most part- this is a great sport in that "older" people can often compete at very high levels. You don't see that often in hockey, football, tennis, etc.

56 very soon.

I've seen enough matches to see different ways (styles?) of top performance.

I've seen raw power, blinding speed, and cat like quickness all produce top performance. Youth has all of such in abundance.

But I still remember one shooter from years ago, Angelo Spagnoli. I can't describe his runs in any terms other than elegantly precise, even graceful.

That is something that can come with experience, and be maintained even when the other attributes start to fade.

While I might agree with you... I prefer to TRY not to think that my age, weight or eyes are in any way limiting my ability to achieve very high levels of shooting. My limits are predominantly limited by my commitment.

Many of the top shooters are VERY efficient at everything they do. Look at Manny Bragg for example- his eyes aren't perfect but he's in great shape and beats most Limited shooters. He's in his upper 40s I believe.

I guess age will catch up to all of us... but I prefer to see it as an artificial barrier in most cases. cheers.gif

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Fair enough.

I was just following up on your own comments. The advantages of youth do not necessarily outweight the benefits of experience, long practice, and refinement of skill.

And of course, there is also that thing I've heard about old age and treachery.... :devil::lol:

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Ah yes, Steel Challenge Champion Angelo Spagnoli...Very nice guy, an elegant shooter (as you said), and one hell of a good representative of our sport. I shot with him at various Bay Area matches, and he was always encouraging because he wanted to win against people who shot as good as they possibly could. I still remember one match at Brentwood where there was a tricky static target array/activator/quick disappearing mover set-up and I was shooting a tactical .45 (back before there was a SS division). He shot it activator > static target array > then the disappearing mover with his open gun without any problem. I was wrestling with if I had time to do it that way with my tact gun or take the safe way of static target array > activator > mover at a great time penalty. He said he knew I could do it, and he wouldn't tell me that if believed otherwise. I shot it successfully the "hard" way because I knew he believed in me, and therefore I should believe in myself. I learned a valuable lesson that day - Have faith. One becomes (or perform to) what they believe.

Angelo was artist.

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I would much rather shoot well.

If I shoot to my abilites and a better shooter beat me, that fine.

If I suck...I lost on my own and that hurts. (woulda, coulda, shoulda)

I agree with this. A strange thing has happened in the North Texas area lately because we have a few more matches to choose from. The last couple of club matches I shot, my Team Infinity GM's weren't there to influence my stage breakdown. So, I used my "A" class skills to break down and shoot the stages. I've won the last two matches (in Limited) when I used the stage break downs I designed rather than my GM Open shooter friends. But, I always wonder how the "other" guys are doing :sight:

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Ah yes, Steel Challenge Champion Angelo Spagnoli...Very nice guy, an elegant shooter (as you said), and one hell of a good representative of our sport. I shot with him at various Bay Area matches, and he was always encouraging because he wanted to win against people who shot as good as they possibly could. I still remember one match at Brentwood where there was a tricky static target array/activator/quick disappearing mover set-up and I was shooting a tactical .45 (back before there was a SS division). He shot it activator > static target array > then the disappearing mover with his open gun without any problem. I was wrestling with if I had time to do it that way with my tact gun or take the safe way of static target array > activator > mover at a great time penalty. He said he knew I could do it, and he wouldn't tell me that if believed otherwise. I shot it successfully the "hard" way because I knew he believed in me, and therefore I should believe in myself. I learned a valuable lesson that day - Have faith. One becomes (or perform to) what they believe.

Angelo was artist.

You'll love this quote:

"Life's battles don't always go to the stronger or faster man. But sooner or later the man who wins, is the man who thinks he can."

-- Vince Lombardi

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  • 3 weeks later...

Admittedly, I don't know if many shooters actually worry about the competition, and shooting is more complicated to practice alone than strongman or lifting, but...

At a certain point many lifters tend to lose interest in records, wins, etc. It becomes something quite personal, and all that matters is your own progression.

I'm beginning to think that shooting may have the same stage - all activities which focus on a simple physical act may have a stage when you go out by yourself into the mental wilderness, and the acts of others are no longer of any interest...

Winning is only Part of the Journey!

Sometimes it seems that we spend too much time focusing on the results. We worry about where we will finish in a tournament or competition or if we will be successful in our business life. What would happen if we looked at outcome as a byproduct or a bonus instead of viewing it as the number one objective?

In our experience at Mental Management Systems the people who strive to succeed and focus solely on being on top of the leaderboard during the competition never fully reach their potential. Why? Aren't we supposed to focus on winning? Isn't that what we are competing for? There is a time and a place for focusing on winning but during the actual competition is not the time or place. The reason this is true is because the Conscious Mind can only think of one thing at a time. When we focus on winning we are not focusing on the process of executing our performance well.

Focusing on winning, planning your victory and dreaming of success happens in the goal setting process and in preparation. It is not only normal and acceptable to imagine yourself as the victor it is vital to growing the Self-Image necessary to win. The problem for most people is that they keep that same fire to succeed during the competition and even ignite a stronger more powerful flame due to the pressure. Competing with that strong desire to win as your primary focus is likely to cause you to over-try and put more pressure on yourself than is necessary to succeed.

Your support team (coaches, parents, friends and fans) need to be aware that your focus on competition day should be on the process of executing not on winning. Their job is to be there for you, support you, encourage you and enjoy the process with you. Their job is not to push you to focus on winning. In most cases competitors are not in total control of the final results of the competition. You are not in control of how others compete. If you are in a subjective grading sport or situation you have even less control over the results. So goal setting to win a tournament when you do not have control over the results may not be the best goal. Maybe you should goal set to have the best performance you are capable. Results are secondary. Winning is a bonus.

I'm sure my Father goal set to win the Olympic Gold Medal but his primary objective during competition was to execute each shot to the best of his ability, one shot at a time. During competition be less concerned with results and allow yourself the freedom to have fun. When you enjoy your participation, are in control of your thoughts and have a preplanned consistent mental program your chances of success increase. Focusing on winning does the opposite. Focusing on winning causes your focus to be pulled from process to results. Process is primary.

In conclusion: Competition is not all about winning - if your primary focus is winning you may be missing a chance to learn, grow and become a better you. Winning is a bonus but not the main objective. Especially if you compete in a sport that is subjective. Build You, Believe in You, Focus on becoming a better version of YOU.

Written by: Heather Sumlin

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Different thing, but there is, on occasion, poetry written to stones. (Which are being lifted.)

And, I think that's what I've been missing to an extent. I KNEW my stones, chain, bars, etc - I wouldn't be surprised if I could still recognize the feel of them, blindfolded - I know I could when I was competing. I still have the memory of the thick bar and the chain in my hands.

I haven't spent the time "knowing" my gun... I shot it last weekend, but I cannot remember how it feels to the same detail that a chain, which I haven't handled in years...

Very interesting...

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benos

Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

I posted this somewhere under "The Set" topic, but rather than searching for it:

The Set

With an empty gun, without drawing, assume your index position. Take a moment and move your attention slowly up from your waist, through your chest, then up into your head, out through your arms and into your grip. Notice and remember the calm feeling you have in your mind and face, and your perfect grip and arm tension. Remember your mind, face, arm, and grip tension as one calm feeling. Call the totality of the feeling "The Set."

(Assigning a name to a group of remembered feelings makes it easier to summon The Set on demand.)

Now without a start beep, summon the feeling of The Set, and draw to your index position, keeping all of your attention on the feeling on the feeling of The Set throughout the draw.

Repeat drawing to The Set over and over, until are completely certain of its total feeling, and complete confident in your ability to draw to The Set. Make that a part of your daily practice.

Especially important is being aware of a feeling of total nuetrality in your grip, which is remembered as one feeling.

Then take The Set to the practice range. Allow yourself not to work on any other skills until you know you are always shooting within The Set.

At "Shooter Ready," exhale slightly, at "Stand By," summon the feeling of The Set ... and this is the key ... along with the command to preserve the feeling of The Set right through the buzzer and the draw - until the first shot fires.

The further hone your ability to summon The Set by repeating the above at the beginning of each stage in every match.

If a stage has movement, train to summon The Set as you move into each new position.

Once my skill set was complete, summoning The Set was all I cared about.

be

Edited by toothguy
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As the saying goes, winning isn't everything but it sure as hell is nice when it happens haha. I'll always cherish the High LE plaque on my wall from this past A1 as its probably the one and only thing I'll ever win at a major match :D:D:D

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  • 5 weeks later...

I recently wrote a facebook article on this very subject:

The Artist and the Champion

The Artist and the Champion were preparing for a match together one day, late summer or early fall. There's not much difference around here...

The Artist says to the Champion: I am training very hard these days, I want to shoot to the absolute best of my ability. I'm sure I'll place well if I do. I might even win.

The Champion replies: I cannot wait to get to the match and beat the living shit out of the competition! I am going to win this thing because I'm the best shooter ever born.

And so they both keep training, but for two very different reasons.

Which are you?

You are absolutely right. When I win it is because I have the attitude that I am going to win because I am the best. When I lose

I usually have the artists attitude.The key is getting yourself to really believe that you are the best, not just thinking it, but

knowing it. Great post.

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I recently wrote a facebook article on this very subject:

The Artist and the Champion

The Artist and the Champion were preparing for a match together one day, late summer or early fall. There's not much difference around here...

The Artist says to the Champion: I am training very hard these days, I want to shoot to the absolute best of my ability. I'm sure I'll place well if I do. I might even win.

The Champion replies: I cannot wait to get to the match and beat the living shit out of the competition! I am going to win this thing because I'm the best shooter ever born.

And so they both keep training, but for two very different reasons.

Which are you?

You are absolutely right. When I win it is because I have the attitude that I am going to win because I am the best. When I lose

I usually have the artists attitude.The key is getting yourself to really believe that you are the best, not just thinking it, but

knowing it. Great post.

If you are as good as Steve Anderson is that's realistic. If not Maku mozo, don't be deluded.

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I'll have more to say on this later, but let me throw this out there:

Would you rather shoot well or win?

I would rather "shoot well" when the benchmark of "well" is my own prior performance. If that means I "win", so be it. Otherwise, I will have placed exactly where I earned.

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I don't agree with Steve's characterization of what I think of as a "Champion"

When I see someone that has won an event with the best score, and they start a boastful strut of Kick Ass false pride. I don't see them as a champion, just someone that had a better score.

When I see someone like Daniel Horner win an event = I see a Champion

I compete for the challenge of each stage in a match. I want to run a string of good stages that out whey the stages that did not go as good as they could for me. If I ever shoot to my potential on every stage I would still not win an event worth going to.

With out competition the shooting is just training for the next challenge.

I have never liked getting beat/ lousing. I Hate Lousing. But I like a challenge more than I hate lousing.

Edited by AlamoShooter
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I don't agree with Steve's characterization of what I think of as a "Champion"

When I see someone that has won an event with the best score, and they start a boastful strut of Kick Ass false pride. I don't see them as a champion, just someone that had a better score.

When I see someone like Daniel Horner win an event = I see a Champion

I compete for the challenge of each stage in a match. I want to run a string of good stages that out whey the stages that did not go as good as they could for me. If I ever shoot to my potential on every stage I would still not win an event worth going to.

With out competition the shooting is just training for the next challenge.

I have never liked getting beat/ lousing. I Hate Lousing. But I like a challenge more than I hate lousing.

One of the great things about shooting the Bianchi Cup is shooting with the top shooters in the world. I listen and observe as much as I can, the practice range is great for this. I have not observed any of the top shooters with any thing but a humble attitude, confidence yes but never arrogance.

Anyone that comes to shoot Bianchi with the attitude that they are the best shooter in the world, and they are going to beat the shit out of the competition is going to have there hat handed to them.

Edited by toothguy
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Well, I have talked to a number of champions and they don't always say publicly what they are feeling inside. When i was at the peak of my shooting, I could zero a stage and still win a club match. I never said it aloud, but I knew it to be true.

I have thought about it a lot, and i have come to the following conclusion: When I feel (believe) that I am adequately trained, I am invincible. When otherwise, I have doubt.

Doubt sucks, so now I must do the work.

And by the way, I'm always more interested (worried) about results when I know I'm not adequately trained...

SA

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